Starter motor not disengaging
#21 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Hi Paul
I was trying to say that the damage to the tips of the teeth of the ring gear has been caused by the starter pinion already rotating at considerable speed when it tries to engage the ring gear teeth, rather than engaging fully before rotating with full power. Sorry the pictures aren't clearer - not the easiest place to photograph, but damage is limited to the teeth tips and no issues running with the Lucas starter.
I referred to inertia starters as they spin before and during tooth engagement, hence the need to have a minimum gap between the pinion and the ring gear to limit the damage inevitably caused to the teeth on engagement.
Hope this clarifies,
Bob
I was trying to say that the damage to the tips of the teeth of the ring gear has been caused by the starter pinion already rotating at considerable speed when it tries to engage the ring gear teeth, rather than engaging fully before rotating with full power. Sorry the pictures aren't clearer - not the easiest place to photograph, but damage is limited to the teeth tips and no issues running with the Lucas starter.
I referred to inertia starters as they spin before and during tooth engagement, hence the need to have a minimum gap between the pinion and the ring gear to limit the damage inevitably caused to the teeth on engagement.
Hope this clarifies,
Bob
Bob
'71 S3
'71 S3
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#22 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Hi
Inertia starter motors are not really any more likely to damage the ring gear than the pre-engaged type as long as they are working properly. The teeth of the pinions are shaped to mesh properly with the ring gear no matter where they are relative to each other when they come into contact.
I think the problem with the high torque starters being sold for classic cars is that they aren't really designed for them. That ring gear probably got mashed up because the starter motor pinion does not have an exact tooth pitch match to the flywheel's ring gear.
A friend of mine has just experienced exactly the same problem on his 1967 Porsche 911 ring gear.
Regards
Inertia starter motors are not really any more likely to damage the ring gear than the pre-engaged type as long as they are working properly. The teeth of the pinions are shaped to mesh properly with the ring gear no matter where they are relative to each other when they come into contact.
I think the problem with the high torque starters being sold for classic cars is that they aren't really designed for them. That ring gear probably got mashed up because the starter motor pinion does not have an exact tooth pitch match to the flywheel's ring gear.
A friend of mine has just experienced exactly the same problem on his 1967 Porsche 911 ring gear.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#23 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Hi Guys,
I’ve got an early V12, fitted with what appears to be the same starter as in the posts, although I got mine from British starters.com in the US. The starter has been on for 10 years with no problems. It is a close fit but does not touch anywhere.
I pulled the engine for a rebuild a year ago, the starter and ring gear were perfect.
The problem Bob had with his may be due to some other issue with his particular starter.
It’s easy enough to check the flywheel teeth if you remove the inspection plate on the bottom of the bellhousing. What a pain it would be to open it up and see that sort of damage.
My car has a manual gearbox, but I wouldn’t think that makes a difference to the distance of the flywheel to the starter.
Cheers
Mark
I’ve got an early V12, fitted with what appears to be the same starter as in the posts, although I got mine from British starters.com in the US. The starter has been on for 10 years with no problems. It is a close fit but does not touch anywhere.
I pulled the engine for a rebuild a year ago, the starter and ring gear were perfect.
The problem Bob had with his may be due to some other issue with his particular starter.
It’s easy enough to check the flywheel teeth if you remove the inspection plate on the bottom of the bellhousing. What a pain it would be to open it up and see that sort of damage.
My car has a manual gearbox, but I wouldn’t think that makes a difference to the distance of the flywheel to the starter.
Cheers
Mark
Mark Brown
1971 S3 Etype, now sold, sadly.
1971 S3 Etype, now sold, sadly.
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#24 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Thought I'd just post an update on the starter motor situation.
The one sent to me by Barretts is a PowerLite unit (www.powerlite-units.com)
I was under the car at the weekend and checked the Flywheel Ring teeth through the little inspection aperture on the bottom of the housing, and the condition is perfect with no signs of any interference/binding etc. which I was relieved by, given above observations and experiences - although of course it is early days.
The motor is a joy and whizzes the engine into life at such a speed it takes a bit of getting used to!
On another note - I got everything sorted just in time for our camping weekend with the families from our daughters' school. Went proper old-school with roof rack etc - No one could believe just how we managed to get an 8 man tent + chairs, cooker,mattresses, food, sleeping bags plus 2 kids etc etc into such a car.
Spent most of the weekend opening the bonnet and showing the other dads round the car.......which of course was the best part of the weekend!!
It felt good to use the Jag for something 'real-life'
The one sent to me by Barretts is a PowerLite unit (www.powerlite-units.com)
I was under the car at the weekend and checked the Flywheel Ring teeth through the little inspection aperture on the bottom of the housing, and the condition is perfect with no signs of any interference/binding etc. which I was relieved by, given above observations and experiences - although of course it is early days.
The motor is a joy and whizzes the engine into life at such a speed it takes a bit of getting used to!
On another note - I got everything sorted just in time for our camping weekend with the families from our daughters' school. Went proper old-school with roof rack etc - No one could believe just how we managed to get an 8 man tent + chairs, cooker,mattresses, food, sleeping bags plus 2 kids etc etc into such a car.
Spent most of the weekend opening the bonnet and showing the other dads round the car.......which of course was the best part of the weekend!!
It felt good to use the Jag for something 'real-life'
Hilton - V12 2+2
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#25 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Frikken awesome Hilton!!! That's how to enjoy one's escalating asset!!
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)
Philip
Jag: 72 S3 XKE, 74 S3 XKE OTS, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)
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#26 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Thanks Philip!
I liked the Seventies-ness of it......reminded me of loading stuff up in my dad's XJ6 in the early 70's and setting off on our annual family holiday. Always a big adventure.
You're right tho - I did feel it was a bit of a 2 finger salute to the trailer queen culture of precious classics (not that I'm saying mine's anywhere near show standard!)
Hilton - V12 2+2
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#27 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Hello,
My starter died and I am working on replacing it by a high-torque unit I bought 10 yrs ago at SNG Barratt but never installed.
That Unit is the same as the one shown by 'ole-xke', but it has the plate adjusted at a different angle .
However, it came with the 29mm diameter pinion and 11 teeth, meaning it was meant to cars until mid 1972 and engine number up to 1S7000 . Mine is from 1973 and engine 1S8xxxx , 25mm pinion and 9 teeth so it won't fit and have to buy a new one...
I am puzzled, ole-xke starter is like my unit (meaning up to mid-1972) but I see his car is from 74 , so how did it fit?
Best
Rui
My starter died and I am working on replacing it by a high-torque unit I bought 10 yrs ago at SNG Barratt but never installed.
That Unit is the same as the one shown by 'ole-xke', but it has the plate adjusted at a different angle .
However, it came with the 29mm diameter pinion and 11 teeth, meaning it was meant to cars until mid 1972 and engine number up to 1S7000 . Mine is from 1973 and engine 1S8xxxx , 25mm pinion and 9 teeth so it won't fit and have to buy a new one...
I am puzzled, ole-xke starter is like my unit (meaning up to mid-1972) but I see his car is from 74 , so how did it fit?
Best
Rui
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#28 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
The obvious answer is that Ole doesn't have a standard flywheel but has replaced that aswell.
kind regards
Marek
kind regards
Marek
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#29 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Hi Rui
Both the early OD 29mm (143 tooth ring gear) and later OD 25mm (160 tooth ring gear) pinions originally had 9 teeth not 11. Worth reading Bill's (angelw) post #2 para 3 onwards here, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17736&p=144719&hilit=pinion#p144719, for some of the other potential pitfalls regarding these replacement starters.
Both the early OD 29mm (143 tooth ring gear) and later OD 25mm (160 tooth ring gear) pinions originally had 9 teeth not 11. Worth reading Bill's (angelw) post #2 para 3 onwards here, viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17736&p=144719&hilit=pinion#p144719, for some of the other potential pitfalls regarding these replacement starters.
Bob
'71 S3
'71 S3
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#30 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Hi Bob,
Reading this with delay , after having installed a new high-torque starter from Lucas.
I reported all works here https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/r-i-p-l ... /426208/26 some time ago.
Meanwhile if you say the starters all had 9 teeth, then the starter i got from SNG back in 2011 and shown above, it was not for a S3 e-type. Too late to ask for a refund though
All the best
Rui
Reading this with delay , after having installed a new high-torque starter from Lucas.
I reported all works here https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/r-i-p-l ... /426208/26 some time ago.
Meanwhile if you say the starters all had 9 teeth, then the starter i got from SNG back in 2011 and shown above, it was not for a S3 e-type. Too late to ask for a refund though
All the best
Rui
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#31 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
I experienced the same problem, but caused by a sticking ignition switch in my S3. Fortunately, it appears little damage to either the starter or flywheel as I was able to diagnose the problem quickly. Now I'm thinking of pulling the switch to see if it can be cleaned, lubricated, or a new spring fitted to keep this from happening again should my brain disengage, instead of the switch. Has anyone tackled this particular repair and can offer advice? This is a U.S. car so I'm loathe to order an $800 switch replacement if I can avoid it.
Richard
'72 OTS manual 4-speed
'72 OTS manual 4-speed
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#32 Re: Starter motor not disengaging
Just a short follow-up: I pulled the switch and, rather than trying to disassemble, I applied a bit of WD-40 (an all-purpose elixir also known as penetrating oil) to the rotating parts. Problem solved. Now, if the oil doesn't polymerize...
Richard
'72 OTS manual 4-speed
'72 OTS manual 4-speed
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