Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Talk about the E-Type Series 3
User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#1 Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:24 am

Hi everybody,

since i have finished my restoration on my Series 3 2+2 from 1972 i have enjoyed al lot of good ride but i have a little issue that annoys me and i idon't find a fix.
In fact mainly at idle but also when i accelerate i have black smoke coming from the Left hand side of the exhaust = engine B cylinders row.
Please see what i have done so far with no success:
-Adjust mixture to a much leaner setting with current metering needle ==> No change
-Review all hoses connection ==> No change
-Ran tests with ail filter==> no change
-Control float heights = 17mm ==> No change
- Adjust timing ==> No change.
- Remove the ball and spring from the fuel non return valve to make sure i did not have too much pressure ==> No change
-Replace the metering needle by brand new B1BH ==> Notested yet

What is strange is that the Raw 1 is ok, the spark plug are having the right expected color (good mixture) but All 6 of the Rax B are black even if i adjust the mixture to the leaner setting.
The engine is running very good, no power loss, quite stable at idle,.... but the fuel consumption seems a bit too high even for a V12.

DO you think this could be caused by an internal broken pipe in 1 or both of the Left hand side carburator? Vaccum issue?,....
Thanks in advance for your usual gret support.

Regards
Jerome
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Ole-xke1974
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:52 am
Location: Annapolis, USA
United States of America

#2 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Ole-xke1974 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:05 am

Jerome,
Have you checked that the choke on the B cylinder bank isn't stuck in one way or an other ?
That's the only thing I can think of that would be common to the two carbs and one bank only.
Otherwise, it looks like you checked everything else.
You know that the two carbs on each side share the choke system of only one of the carbs ?
Cheers and good luck .......... Ole
1974 SIII E-Type w. XJ S2 4sp w. O/D

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#3 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:40 am

Ole,

thanks. I forgot to mention it but yes i have already checked that the ckoke was not stuck on that bank and it's not. There is only 1 carb which has a choke.
Regards
Jérome
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

PeterCrespin
Posts: 4385
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Contact:
United States of America

#4 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by PeterCrespin » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:58 am

You could try removing the connecting pipe to see if three cylinders return to normal after isolating from choke. Do all floats float? Try swapping carb bowls or eventually complete pairs between A & B bank.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

jagwit
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Pretoria
South Africa

#5 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by jagwit » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:47 pm

Someone has recently found that the disc with the holes inside the choke mechanism was installed the wrong way round. Better check yours.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 E-type V12, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#6 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:29 pm

Peter, Philip,

thanks for your idea, i'll do it and let you know.
I have already check the choke disc and looked ok to me but did not have any drawing to compare. I'll do it.
In parallel i have found 2 second hand Carb that i'll rework and swap them with my current one if i do not have any improvements with the last tests i'll make.

Keep you posted
Thanks
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#7 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:11 pm

Hi,

sorry for not getting back earlier but i could not do the tests as i have faced a fuel pump failure and i just received the parts to rework the pump this week.
I'm just wondering if my smoke issue could not be linked to the fuem pump!?
I explain my reasoning: when i disassemble the pump i found out that the pump was almost stuck and i think the full pressure was much lower than it should. In consequnce the Band A was supplied probably with enough pressure but not the band B as supplied after the A. Therefore if the pressure was not high enough for band B the fuel flow was perhaps not good enough to fill the float chamber quick enough and therefore close the needle as it should. This could potentially create an fuel overfilling in the band B and explain the smoke.
Does my reasoning make sense? OR not?
I'll try to run some testing in the coming days to see whether or not my theroy is completely stupid or not.

Thanks in advance for your comment.
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

jagwit
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 am
Location: Pretoria
South Africa

#8 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by jagwit » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:20 pm

Jérôme

The only ways OVERfilling can result (that I can think of now) is if:
1) the fuel pump pressure is WAY too high - so high that it can push fuel THROUGH the needle and seat. It is rather unlikely that a non-EFI fuel pump can do this;
2) the needle does not close fully (floats not set correctly, debris in the needle/seat).
But then you should see fuel flowing out the main jets with fuel pump running and engine stationary.

With fuel pressure too LOW, its really hard to predict what will happen but I would guess the RH bank is likely to get more fuel than the left. If you tuned the carbs in this situation, its likely that the LH carbs will run richer once proper fuel pressure is restored.

Regardless, I still think you should check the choke assemblies first, even if only to know for sure that they really ARE OK.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 E-type V12, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#9 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:52 am

Dear all,

since my last post i have remove the carbs once more and review the float height setting, choke assembly, i changed all needles,.... and i did not find anything strange in the carburettors that could explain the issue.
My Fuel pump has been reworked and the pressure is in line with requirement.
Recently i have set the timing again and now the car (ex US form 1971) is running with retard valve disconnected.
Yesterday i removed the sparks and unfortunately all sparks of the LHS bank are black (too rich) while the sparks on the RHS are white (too lean).

Any idea?
Thanks in advance
Regards
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


MarekH
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: Surrey
Great Britain

#10 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by MarekH » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:11 am

You've not mentioned anything anywhere on this thread about airflow and black plugs are a symptom of too much petrol for the airflow you have, or not enough air for the petrol you have.

If the carburettor linkages are not allowing the throttle plates to open together then one side may not be synchronised with the other. Also, you'd need to check that the throttle plates default position is the same on each throttle and that any of the air bypass points are synchronised and equally affecting each carburettor (overrun valves and temperature compensators).

Then you can think about setting the jet height and needle heights. Not synchronising airflow first would mean that the needles would remain unsynchronised over their entire range.

Roger Bywater's AJ6 website tells how to do this for an XJS and you can adapt the same methodology for setting up the mechanical controls on airflow(linkages and throttle plates) for your engine.

kind regatrds
Marek

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

lowact
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:
Australia

#11 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by lowact » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:29 am

I note this has been a problem since restoration. Is it possible that this might be caused by the camshafts having been reinstalled slightly out of sync?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

PeterCrespin
Posts: 4385
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Contact:
United States of America

#12 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by PeterCrespin » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:39 am

One or more carbs has been wrongly assembled IMO. It is possible to fit the drilled Strangleberg enrichment disc the wrong way round. The effect is then that 'choke' off is the rich position and choke on is normal fueling.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#13 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:02 pm

Thanks for you valuable feedback.

Marek,

sorry of my description was not complete enough but yes i have already control few times if the carburettor linkages was well balanced and set and i have also "try" to synchronized the carb (air flow first and then mixture) as best as possible.

Peter,

i have looked at the Strangleberg enrichment disc and it's as it should.

Collin,

your question on the Camshaft setting is also what i have in mind but i think 1 tooth difference will drive to a much bigger issue?

Thanks
regards
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

lowact
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:05 am
Location: Canberra, Australia
Contact:
Australia

#14 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by lowact » Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:57 pm

Image
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#15 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:29 pm

Many thanks Colin.
i'll dig this route cause analysis further.
Regards
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#16 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:31 pm

Hi all,
i finally took some time to remove emission control pipes, the left hand side carburators, inlet manifolds,.... to access the camshaft and see if my camshaft timing was ok or not.
I have once stupid question: as i m checking band B timing should the bottom pulley be with the B mark at 0 degrés and the timing gauge in the slot or it should be the A mark assuming the cylindre 1 of Band A is a T.D.C?
Thanks in advance
Regards
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


MarekH
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: Surrey
Great Britain

#17 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by MarekH » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:55 pm

The mark on the crank pulley ought to relate to cylinder 1a which is the front cylinder on the right hand bank of the car.

The crank turns through 360' twice for every one revolution of the camshaft(s).

At the same time as the crank is at 1a tdc, both camshafts will either have their timing notch pointing 100% "up" or 100% "down", depending on whether you are on the 1a compression stroke or the 1a exhaust stroke respectively.

To set the cam timing, the cam timing tool wants to fit into the A camshaft slot exactly the same as it does into the B.

You can only do that when you are at 1a tdc on the compression stroke, give or take a few degrees, as the valves will hit the pistons if you set your camshafts further advanced or retarded than 1a tdc by much. Usually, you set the camshafts not to be advanced or retarded relative to the crank, but exactly when at 1a tdc 0' crank advance.

kind regards
Marek

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#18 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:17 am

Marek,

thanks for your reply and this was my understanding when i set the timing when i rebuilt the engine.
As of now the engine timing is set as when the A mark on Crankshaft pulley is at 0° the tool fit in the slot of both camshafts (Band A and B).
Nevertheless since i have the issues mentionned earlier i'm now confused as there is a B mark on the crankshalft pulley.
What this B mark on the cranksahft pulley is for used for then?
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


MarekH
Posts: 1042
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:30 pm
Location: Surrey
Great Britain

#19 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by MarekH » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:00 am

I've no idea.

The only logical reason to have another mark on the pulley is so you can set the timing using a different cylinder against the same pointer OR so you can move the pointer to another easier to see location .

You'd have to measure the angle difference between the two marks to decide which of these two the answer would be.

On my car, I put a second pointer up underneath the water pump and drew a red line on the damper so I could see 1a tdc more easily.

kind regards
Marek

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Topic author
Djerome60
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:56 pm
France

#20 Re: Black smoke Series 3 2+2

Post by Djerome60 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:29 am

Marek,

ok thanks. This mark on the pulley seems original and is only few degres away form the A's and seems to be original. By the way looking at the repain Manual page 43 for example you can also see the B mark on the pulley. Named this B is quite confusing too.

I thought this might explain my smoking and consumption issues and that the Camshaft of the B Band was 1 tooth away from where it shoudl be but it looks like i need to dig somewhere else but where????
Mystery.

Regards
Jérôme
Regards
Jérôme

E type Series 3 - 2+2 1972
Peugeot 304 Cab 1971

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic