Tuning Problems V12

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jagwit
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#21 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by jagwit » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:30 am

SESH wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:52 pm
I also wondered if it was worth swapping out the coil for a new one.
EXTREMELY unlikely to be the problem. It would be worth swapping it out for the RIGHT one (if current coil is not correct). A coil is not just a coil. To be able to charge a coil for 6000RPM on a V12 from a single coil (600 sparks per second!!) it needs to have a rather low primary winding impedance.

At low RPMs, the wrong coil probably won't matter much.
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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SESH
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#22 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:11 am

Thanks Philip.
The current coil fitted was part of the kit supplied by SNG when the new opus replacement kit (DAB113HE) was installed. So should be the correct one.
Cheers
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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SESH
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#23 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:04 pm

Spoken with SNG Barratt. They asked me to send them the Amplifier back for test. Apparently there has been a further mod to these Opus Replacement Amplifiers in the last 12 months. All to do with heat failure. So will get my one tested and whilst they are at it they are going to add longer wiring harnesses so that I can re-mount the amplifier on the picture frame away from the heat of the engine block (The Valley of Death!). So amplifier removed last night and dispatched to SNG Barratt by recorded delivery today. We shall see what they find.
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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Ole-xke1974
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#24 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by Ole-xke1974 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm

SESH wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:04 pm
They asked me to send them the Amplifier back for test. Apparently there has been a further mod to these Opus Replacement Amplifiers in the last 12 months. All to do with heat failure.
Mike
Following with interest ........
PS: I have great experiences with SNG/US over the years.
1974 SIII E-Type w. XJ S2 4sp w. O/D

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SESH
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#25 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:15 pm

SNG Barratt advise that the amplifier tested ok on their test rig. However, the test equipment doesn't input heat to the amplifier. So they have changed the internal module and added longer wiring so that I can mount it further away from the V of the block. It is currently en route to me and is due back here on Monday.
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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driver
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#26 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by driver » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:15 pm

Hi all I fitted the new sng system 2years ago as an modification.(I never had any problems with the original opus system but I wanted to avoid any potential problems has I was aware of the problems with the original system). I mounted the module on the picture frame as an extra precaution, SNG supplied me with an extra
long lead its been ok ever since. I went on the theory that heat and electrics can be very troublesome.
Having worked in aerospace for a number of years if ever there was a time when the CNC machinery malfunctioned it is always in warm/hot conditions and most these controls are air conditioned.
As for your erratic tick over speed it may be worth checking you have no leaking vacume pipes as this is critical on an auto.
Anyway best of luck ,its the joys of owning an XKE. :geek:
v12 etype 2+2

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SESH
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#27 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:33 pm

Thanks for info. Agree heat and electrics not the best mix. With this being mounted on the engine block in the middle of the V seems crazy. When I get the amplifier back it will be relocated to the picture frame. I too am in the Aviation Industry and appreciate, as you say, that avionics are normally protected with air conditioning or separate dedicated cooling fans. The Motor industry is not quite to the same standard, but I guess if it fails we can coast to a stop, whilst in the air it's a different matter!
As for the tick over, all the vacuum hoses have been checked/replaced, but I still regularly check them.
Cheers
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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SESH
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#28 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:48 pm

Got the amplifier back today from having a new module fitted and longer wires so that I can mount the amplifier on the picture frame.
All fitted, cranked the engine but it won't fire, no attempt at all. No spark from the coil to the distributor.
Checked everything was connected properly and it was.
However noticed the wires on the connector block from the amplifier to the distributor were connected strangely. Coming from the amplifier are two wires one black and one purple. They connect via an offset connector block so that you can't connect the wrong way around. However the Purple connects to Black and the Black connects to Red. I would have thought that black should connect to black. But I could be wrong.
Anyone any ideas about the SNG Barratt Opus replacement system DAB113HE.
Thanks
Mike
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jagwit
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#29 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by jagwit » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:49 pm

SESH wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:48 pm
All fitted, cranked the engine but it won't fire, no attempt at all. No spark from the coil to the distributor.
.
.
However the Purple connects to Black and the Black connects to Red. I would have thought that black should connect to black. But I could be wrong.
*Eish!! It never stops does it...

It seems logical that black should connect to black but in this instance it may not be the case. These ignition modules are polarity sensitive for the signal coming from the VR sensor in the dissy to the ignition amp.

It seems rather unlikely that SNG would have messed up the polarity but worse things have happened. Check with SNG on this issue. Can you not swop the wires at the amp end, inside the amp? Doing so can not do any harm. At worst, it still may just not work.

* South African expression:
"Eish" (pronounced Eye-Sh) can express anything below (but its not a swear word like F#$&)

1. Excited
2. Horrified
3. Angry
4. Happy
5. Shocked
6. Accident
7. Incredulous
8. Baffled
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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SESH
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#30 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:38 am

Hi Philip,
Indeed my thoughts exactly.
I contacted SNG this morning and they are coming back to me.
Apparently these modules are supplied and worked on by a third party. So they are asking the question.
Didn't want to start messing about with the wires and then invalidating any warranty I had.
Will update as soon as I hear.
Cheers
mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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42south
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#31 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by 42south » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 am

Hi Mike,

I took a look at that plug on my Pre HE barratt distributor. LIke yours it seems to cross over the wires, however it works perfectly.
No guarantees with your HE dissy, but it may be correct.
cheers
Mark Brown
1971 S3 Etype
Son: when I grow up, I want to be a pilot
Dad: You’ll have to choose.

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SESH
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#32 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:12 am

Thanks Mark.
I should get a response from SNG today as I sent them the photo too.
I think this one is going to have to be returned.
Will keep you posted.
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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jagwit
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#33 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by jagwit » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:54 am

I am a bit baffled by Mark's ignition overheating issue. :scratchheadyellow:

About 2 years ago, I recommissioned an S3 FHC for a friend. This ended up just short of a full rebuild. The car was delivered with a botch job of an ignition system but I had an HE ignition system in stock complete with dissy (with operational vacuum advance :bouncyyellow: ), Lucas AB14 amp and dual coils which I installed to the car.

Although I have never had a bad experience with this Lucas system, I have read a few negative reports about it.

I mounted the the Lucas AB14 amp in the V, as close to the dissy as I could. The only heat measure I took in this installation was to install heat insulation between the amp mounting plate and the engine. I did this simply because :
1) I wanted to keep the wires from the dissy to the Lucas amp as short as possible to reduce induced noise to a minimum;
2) I wanted the engine to appear as neat as possible, with as few wires as possible.

This car (and my own E-type with the Lumenition system) and my XJS were driven on a 500km trip on a day that was exceptionally hot (I estimate well above 35ºC) and we suddenly hit a tail wind that saw all three car's temperature gauges rise steadily to levels that had all of us rather worried. But they all ran perfectly.

My point is this (rhetorical): How is it that a 35 year old ignition system is working perfectly under adverse conditions and something modern can not cope under similar conditions..... :?:
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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#34 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:17 am

Just resolved the issue of no spark!
Apparently the new amplifier DAB113HE requires an earth from the actual amplifier module bolt holes. This is normally achieved when mounting on the engine block in the V through the two retaining bolts.
As the amplifier had been moved to the picture frame there wasn't an earth. The old Opus system doesn't need the earth, but the new HE module does. There is nothing on any instructions to show that the amp casing needs an earth. I spoke with SNG technical department this morning and got this info. The cross wiring was correct. After mounting the amp back on the block in the normal place the engine fired first turn!
The amp and wiring is now coming back off and being sent back to SNG for another 5" of wiring so that I can mount it forward of the picture frame in cooler air. This time running a dedicated earth wire from the amp bolt holes. The bottom surface is not sufficient for an earth so it will have to go through an eyelet on the bolt to a dedicated engine earth.
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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jagwit
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#35 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by jagwit » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:26 am

SESH wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:17 am
so that I can mount it forward of the picture frame in cooler air.
Where the radiator fans will be blowing directly onto it? Genuine question: I wonder what the temp of that air coming out the radiator fans is on a hot day.... Note to self: Measure this next chance I get.
Best Regards
Philip
71 E-type V12 Coupe,
80 XJS (EFI by Megasquirt & EDIS-6 + 5sp manual overdrive)
73 Jensen Interceptor
74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + overdrive 4sp auto)

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MSM
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#36 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by MSM » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:49 am

Jagwit

Radiator fan air outlet temperature will probably be 70 - 80 C on a hot day.
Mike

S2 FHC

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SESH
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#37 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:17 pm

Much lower I would guess than the temperature on top of the engine block!
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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MarekH
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#38 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by MarekH » Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:47 pm

I wouldn't confuse the engine water temperature with the air temperature.

There is only 19 litres of water circulating (and only a fraction of this resides in the radiator) but a massively huge volume of air being pumped. The Otter switch hysteresis is about 10'c, so 10'c drop in water is spread over a massive volume of pumped air, so to speak.

From looking at the underbonnet air and fuel temperature sensors, these don't exceed 60'c even when stuck in traffic, so I wouldn't think it is logical that the air coming through the fan exceeds this.

kind regards
Marek

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#39 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:42 pm

Amplifier returned in very fast time. Thanks to Brian at SNG Barratt. Very helpful.
New correct length wiring now attached. Fitted this afternoon and engine started first turn.
Have bought two header tank brackets to mount the amplifier forward on the picture frame.
Note to all, don't forget to add a dedicated earth to the amplifier bolt holes.
Hopefully problem solved.
Mike
1973 Series 3 OTS Signal Red

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#40 Re: Tuning Problems V12

Post by SESH » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:01 pm

Amplifier now re-sighted on the picture frame under the header tank.
Mounted longitudinally in front of the picture frame using a new header tank bracket.
Manufactured a metal strip to hold the amplifier using both bolt holes. Then added a dedicated earth wire to the engine block.

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