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#1 V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:37 pm
by Phil3.8
A bit of a strange question from me unfortunately, but one I hope someone can help me with. It's fairly long winded and apologies in advance if I don't seem to make much sense.

In a nutshell, I want to know if a V12 2+2 could be converted to a DHC.

I've had a quick look into it and understand there would be quite a bit of work required but in theory it's possible. On an early Series 1 or 2 car there is a length difference but I understand this isn't the case on the Series 3 as the convertible and Coupe are the same basic length. Also the part numbers for the floors and boot floor are the same so there is hope!

A quick look shows at the rear of the car I'd need 2 outer wings, all 4 panels that surround the boot lid and their relevant strengtheners, a boot lid, and an upper rear bulkhead to block off the boot compartment from the car.

Obviously at the front the windscreen pillars are different, but the scuttle panel is the same part number.

My questions are

1/ Is it possible?
2/ Has anyone done it before?
3/ Is there any additional stiffness in the shell between Convertible and Coupe?

Any advice or even opinions appreciated. :)

#2 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:49 pm
by mgcjag
You will end up with a vehicle of greatly reduced value.....also when you notify the DVLA of the change which you should if you rebuild a vehicle they will give you a Q registration.....you will have created a "Radically altered vehical" as far as the DVLA are concerned and you would also have to pass an IVA inspection befor you get your Q plate... https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles

#3 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:08 pm
by Phil3.8
Hmm, value for me doesn't really come into it as the car isn't worth much as it is anyway. It's more about finding a potential way to realise my life's dream.

Q plate is not ideal though, I'll have a read of the link and see what's what.

#4 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:56 pm
by AussieEtype
Yes it is quiet feasible - just buy the new body panels, cut off the roof etc etc - I helped a guy about 25 years after he had done the conversion find with measurements and pics of interior trim pieces as they were almost impossible to find then and he was making his own - he had lots of dentists plaster and took moulds of various parts so he could make some at home.

Picking up on comments about values - spot on. As a result of my experience of the above I always check the car/body number of OTS vehicles being advertised and I have spotted a few ex hardtops now being sold at OTS prices - I hope the new buyers knew what they were buying as the seller was not advertising that the car was a conversion.

My advice is to not do what you propose and fix up what you have - there is a good market for V12 FHC in its own right.

Garry

#5 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:33 pm
by mgcjag
So long as you register the car correctly and the V5 document states exactly what the vehicle is then there should be no misrepresentation.......just be aware that a vehicle not registered correctly for roaduse cannot legaly be driven on the road and although you may think you have it insured you will not actually be covered on the road if its not registered correctly......also i think that you will be liable for full road tax....you need to check

#6 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:51 pm
by Phil3.8
Thanks for all the reply's so far, keep them coming!

Of course the car would need to be correctly registered, I'ts something I hadn't considered and need to look into.

Resale value really doesn't come into it, but of course most buyers know exactly what to look for and would always be able to tell the difference even if/when completed...not that the car would ever be for sale.

The story is that I'm 32, and I've spent from the age of 5 or 6 wanting an E-type. I've worked on quite a few, driven some, and owned a couple of other Jaguars along the way. I've always believed that and E-Type is out of my reach and would remain a dream, but I have the opportunity to buy a V12 2+2 that is incomplete, and has a very rusty/dented roof panel.

The rest seems very solid, so in order to make my dream car, and save one from ending up as another bulkhead/ID that you see online, I wanted to create my perfect car and make it open top.

Hope that all makes sense...

#7 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:12 pm
by mgcjag
Hi Phil....i dont think you are correct is saying that "most buyers know exactly what to look for and would always be able to tell the difference even if/when completed"......You would be supprised what some buy when they have the blinkers on.......Are you really sure you would be satisfied with a converted vehicle.....it would continually be pointed out to you......All the best with whatever route you take...Steve

#8 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:19 pm
by Phil3.8
mgcjag wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:12 pm
Hi Phil....i dont think you are correct is saying that "most buyers know exactly what to look for and would always be able to tell the difference even if/when completed"......You would be supprised what some buy when they have the blinkers on.......Are you really sure you would be satisfied with a converted vehicle.....it would continually be pointed out to you......All the best with whatever route you take...Steve
If it means owning/driving an E-Type Steve, Let people point out whatever they want! :)

In an ideal world I'd be driving a Briggs Cunningham Series 1 Lightweight, or The Peter Lindner Lowdrag, but I'll take anything I can get.

I've been to shows in cars where people have counted rivets/pointed out imperfections etc, and usually that says more about them than the persons car they're ripping into. As long as the owner is happy that should be alright.

#9 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:33 pm
by Series1 Stu
Hi Phil

Well, you've certainly got the right attitude and I agree with your views on value. The Q plate would be the only thing that would put me off such a venture because I would hate to look at an E Type and see that Q.

Perhaps looking at the likely costs is the way to view it. I reckon that you could probably buy a reasonable DHC for what your project is likely to cost you because you will want to do the job properly and you will get project creep where your expand the scope as you proceed.

If your can do all the work yourself then you stand a fighting chance but with E Type paint jobs costing upward of £8k your are in for an expensive time.

Oh. In addition, when people see the Q plate they'll ask if it's a Challenger. Thinking about it, maybe a Challenger is the answer......

#10 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:43 am
by christopher storey
I would have a word with Keith Vincent of the JEC who is a former police officer who has specialised in registration matters for many years. I find the interpretation of the regulations very difficult in a case such as this and I am not entirely convinced that this would be a "radically altered vehicle" for these purposes because you are using the original monocoque and the envisaged form of the car is exactly as a DHC would have left the factory . I certainly do not think you would inevitably end up with a Q plate as on most interpretations you would score 9 points on the rating system .

#11 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:04 am
by mgcjag
Hi Christopher....from the DVLA site i linked to above...

Keep the original registration number
Your vehicle must have 8 or more points from the table below if you want to keep the original registration number. 5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.
Get a ‘Q’ registration number
You will not be able to keep your vehicle’s original registration number if one of the following applies:
It has fewer than 8 points
it has a second-hand or altered chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame
there’s evidence that 2 vehicles have been welded together to form one (ie ‘cut and shut’)
Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

This would definatly be classed as not useing the original unmodified chassis/monocoque and 5 points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.....
I cant see any other catagory that it could be registered in and not get a Q plate....but im no expert

#12 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:46 am
by PeterCrespin
How is it that countless replicas from Lynx to Challenger, or Realm to Suffolk, Proteus et al don’t have Q plates? Some are based on 4-door Jag donors, some on Es, but all are more altered than a decapitated 2+2?

#13 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:03 am
by Phil3.8
mgcjag wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:04 am
This would definatly be classed as not useing the original unmodified chassis/monocoque and 5 points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.....
I cant see any other catagory that it could be registered in and not get a Q plate....but im no expert
If that were the case every C-Type/D-type replica etc would be on a Q plate as well. I've seen a lot of them that are not, they may well be correctly registered as a Realm or Proteus etc, but they're definitely not on a "Q" plate.

#14 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:10 am
by Phil3.8
PeterCrespin wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:46 am
How is it that countless replicas from Lynx to Challenger, or Realm to Suffolk, Proteus et al don’t have Q plates? Some are based on 4-door Jag donors, some on Es, but all are more altered than a decapitated 2+2?
A decapitated 2+2...I like that! :bigrin:

However I do agree it seems odd that a fibreglass shell with a tube chassis can keep it's donors reg and not end up a "Q" plate, but an original E-Type with a missing roof wouldn't.

#15 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:08 am
by mgcjag
Hi All...let me try to explain......first im refering to the UK there are different rules for other countries....You probably noticed that im currently building a Realm C type......so befor i started i investigated how the finnished car could be registered.....I spoke to the Guys at Realm who confirmed that the car would need to be registered with the DVLA as a "Kit converted vehicle".....it would need an IVA to do this......following this procedure the car would be issued with a number plate relating to the year of the doner vehicle use( not the doner number)..it would be registered as a new vehicle so if this year a 2019 model and need road tax..and need its first MOT as any new car in 3 years time.....DVLA will not allow it to be registered as any type of Jag.....it has to be as a Realm....the manufacturer of the kit used....
....lets just look at cars built less than 10 years ago.....dont know the exact years but at some stage prior to this an IVA or SVA wasnt required and DVLA registration was more "flexible"
So why do we see so many Cs Ds Lightweights without a Q plate..quite simple really....they are not registered...if you dont believe it then check out the numberplate on the dvla vehicle check site......you will see that the numberplate is for the doner car or just a purchased identity....usually an XJ6..Mk2 2+2 etc.so the C,D Ss100 or whatever is driving on the road unregistered, with no safety test (IVA or MOT) and paying no road tax..Suffolk have only just started to put their cars through IVA........the DVLA are becoming more aware of these non registered un taxed cars and iv been told actively persueing them....so yes you can create any type of vehical and drive it on the road that dosnt make it legal....so dont be supprised if one day its confiscated or your given a Q plate
The DVLD registration rules are very clear on their website.....they are clamping down on altered vehicle.....some of our members here that have registered there rebuilds have had inspections by DVLA befor being issued with a registration

#16 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:44 am
by mgcjag
Hi Phil.....just to add...you asked for advice so im just trying to make you aware of potential problems.....I was amazed when i first got into the Replica world and investigated registrations to realised what was going on......I do know of a Kougar that changed its engine and notified DVLA to get the number altered on the V5.....they realised the Kougar was actually driving on the doner car registration....they withdrew the number and issued a Q plate
Just to add that even Jaguar cant register their continuation lightweights, D and XKSS for road use in the UK

#17 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:34 pm
by PeterCrespin
The Jag situation is different in that the cars are as new as a current showroom model and therefore incapable of passing any of today’s crash, safety or emissions standards etc. Just because it’s identical to a 50-70 year old car from the same company (ish) and has an ancient VIN doesn’t mean it only has to comply with standards from that period. New car + new car tests = test pass happiness or test fail blues and no way to drive on UK roads.

My first Realm was built about 1985 from a donor XJ6 and registered as “2-door sports” under Body Type on the V5. I struggle to see the justice in rescinding an ID they have been happy with for several decades.

The second Realm was also built from an XJ6 and carried the number over when built around 1995. I put a dateless reg on it and I think the engine and MOD box (and IRS etc.) were matched the XJ6 ID plate riveted to the bulkhead. About 15 MoT testers bad passed the car and there was no cloning or tax/MoT dodging. I could understand them bouncing that one due to lack of body points but it would be a bit rough IMO.

#18 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:14 am
by 42south
Hi Phil
to get back to your original query. Yes its possible, I had mine converted almost 30 years ago. At the time I didn't have the money for an original softop so this was the only option.
The good thing about the S3 2+2 is that it was designed as an open car so all the chassis and body is up to strength and nothing needs to be done in this area.
The 2 + 2 only came about when jaguar decided that Jeremy, that young man about town, was now married and wanted to take Felicity and the kids out in the Jag as well. So they just created a roof and attached it to the Open car.
So really you are only taking it back to the original, perhaps this could be argued with your registration authorities
the parts you will need are a windscreen, its different to the 2+2, boot lid, folding roof bows. If you are not a fabricator then a good panel guy.
We have had such good fun in this car, and have toured the length and breadth of NZ over the last 25 years. Go ahead and do it I say

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Happy motoring
Mark

#19 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:03 am
by Barry
I have gone on line, and whilst no expert on the subject; logic and initial interpretation tells me that the original chassis stays the same, and therefore the number, engine stays the same etc etc. So, why can’t the V5 stay the same saying the car is a 2+2. I understand the piece about “significant modifications,” but this is not a case of creating a kit car from Jaguar bits to get round the Q plate scenario. The chassis is the same.......can’t DVLA give a definitive answer on this? Good luck on your quest. I take my hat off to you, and hope you realise your dream.

#20 Re: V12 2+2 Coupe converting to DHC - Feasible?

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:08 am
by christopher storey
I go back to what I said earlier. Keith Vincent of the JEC is the nation's top expert on this subject . A talk with him is the first step