From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Talk about the E-Type Series 3

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sideways60
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#1 From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by sideways60 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:05 pm

I Dont want to Move the Gear Lever Location , Appreciate your Thoughts . Ta Russ

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mgcjag
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#2 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by mgcjag » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:21 pm

Lots of info on the forum if you search...try this to start with...http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7226
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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V12 Epyte
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#3 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by V12 Epyte » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:27 pm

FYI I enquired with Uryk at E Type Fabs about a month ago, evidently he's not making his 5 speed box anymore.
Didn't want to take an order for one. He stopped making them as it was becoming increasingly difficult to source the gear sets.
John
1971 Series 3 FHC 2+2 RHD Manual
1971 Series 3 Roadster 2+2 RHD Manual
1986 Rover SD1 Vitesse Twin Plenum

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Paul Buckley
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#4 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Paul Buckley » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:51 pm

Elite racing transmissions, Stoke on Trent, UK, will build and provide a five speed Tremec T5 gearbox.
I have one in my S3 OTS and it is very good, changes well and is not noisy, a common complaint.
You can specify the ratio of the fifth gear, I chose .63 which gives me a quiet and comfortable cruising gear, usable down to 30 mph.
Paul

1972 S3 OTS, 32k mls, a survivor.

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Barry
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#5 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Barry » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:05 am

My experience of the Elite Racing gearbox was not good. Two fitted on my Series 1 both had a noisy 5th gear. Elite were difficult to deal with. Then I sold the car and bought a Series 3 with a 6 litre engine. Thankfully, the car had been fitted with rebuilt original 4 speed Jaguar. However, with a 2.88 lsd diff, it means at 90 mph, the engine is running at 3500 revs. With so much torque in the V12, you really don’t need a 5 speed gearbox. If you must, then the options really are limited to get a quiet gearbox, and a gearchange as good as the original. Uryk’s gearbox at Evolution is excellent after 1000 miles of bedding in, but expensive.

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#6 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Paul Buckley » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:51 pm

Elite's problem laid with its manager at the time, a Rob Swift, who left a few years ago and was replaced by Ben.
Elite is a subsidiary of Beagle engineering, a large and well equipped machine shop, whose owner is Mark Bloor.
Mark has engineering in his genes and spends most of his time on the large shop floor, rather than in his office!
Rob Swift conned me into buying a T5 gearbox that he had 'found' in the back of the workshop, after telling me that they were out of stock and I would have to wait two months for the next shipment of boxes from the States.
The gearbox was extremely noisy in all gears, and especially so in reverse.
By the time I got back to Elite to complain, Swift had left and the problem was dealt with by the big boss, Mark Bloor, who accompanied me on a drive demonstration and agreed that it was a 'duff' box.
Because Mark spent so much time on the shop floor he tended to be a bit lethargic about sorting the problem, but eventually had me take the car to M & C Wilkinson in Yorkshire to have a new box fitted at Elite's expense, which, as you will know, is an expensive exercise, labour wise.
Excellent result, but it didn't end there!
Due to a paperwork mixup, the new box installed had been fitted with the wrong 5th ratio, so the car went back to Wilkinson's for a second exchange, again all expenses absorbed by Elite.
As far as the T5 box is concerned, I am very happy with it, it changes cleanly, is quiet, and that fifth gear is magic on the motorway, but can be retained down to 30 mph, the only downside is that it quietens that magnificent V12 exhaust note!
Paul

1972 S3 OTS, 32k mls, a survivor.

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Barry
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#7 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Barry » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:09 pm

Umm, not my experience with Mr Blor. Rude and arrogant. Ask New Forest Classics who were out of pocket by several thousands of pounds. The problem is that it is based on a Tremec T5, with the 5th gear changed to suit an appropriate ratio for an E-type. All a bit hit and miss.....

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#8 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by sideways60 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:43 am

Thanks for the Responses ,

A lot of that Thread relates to the 6 Cyl

Barry , I'm interested in the RPM at 70MPH with a 2.88 thanks ? , ive currently got a 3.54

I does seem my Choices are limited ,

Ive heard the an XJS had a Factory 5 Speed ? ,

Also a 4 plus OD from the Factory ?

Im also Surprised The Aussie's Haven't come up with An Option as they have a Huge Choice of Falcon/Commodore 5 and 6 Speed Boxes ? ,

Thanks Russ

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#9 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by politeperson » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:15 am

Are we talking about a V12 with a 3.54? I usually come across those on the 6's.

Stick a 2.88 in it and keep the 4 speed all synchro box.

It retains the character of the car, retains the money in your wallet.

Mine has been totally reliable over the last 10,000 miles and you can complete the exercise in a weekend. Fit and forget.

I went from a 3.54 to 2.88 for £400. Make sure you buy the Salisbury not the Dana, as the brakes on the Dana will not accept e type calipers. Change the input and 2 output seals before you fit it. If it has no drain plug it is a Dana, so best avoided unless it is cheap and had calipers attached.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jaguar-XJS-i ... SwinlcmCMz

I will have to remind myself how many revs it does at 70. Then I will post the answer. Changing from 3rd to 4th doesn't seem to stress the motor at all. Cruises at 90mph easily with plenty left.

I have been all over Europe, stuck on the M25-everything and it works very well. I enjoy the tall 1st gear, reminds me of a Le Mans car setting off.

Here is 0-60 and 40-90.



Last edited by politeperson on Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

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#10 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by abowie » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:23 am

I've got a Medatronics JT5 box and a 3.54 diff in my 3.8. Because of our policing in Australia I don't ever go over 110kph in the car and to be honest I rarely use 5th at all.

I have 2 other cars with 3.07 diffs and all synchro boxes and have sold a third, and to be honest they are all fine to my taste.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#11 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by mgcjag » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:59 am

Hi Russ.....this could be of intetest...V12 4 speed pluss overdrive.....note the comments from Bill in Australia re updrading the o/d.... Steve http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php? ... ive#p97390
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#12 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by sideways60 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:09 pm

Yes Politeperson , its a 72 OTS with a 3.54 , currently it would be Great for Towing a Trailer lol ,
My racing days are over so i rarely go over 70 ,
I'm Aiming for as close to 2000 rpm at 70 for relaxed Driving ,
Does anyone know if a 2.88 and 4 speed will do it ? ,

Thanks Russ

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#13 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by angelw » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:54 pm

Barry Wrote:
However, with a 2.88 lsd diff, it means at 90 mph, the engine is running at 3500 revs. With so much torque in the V12, you really don’t need a 5 speed gearbox.
Hello Barry,
Couldn't agree more. There has been a lot written that a 2.88 is too tall for an S3, that it makes them uncomfortable to drive around town at low speed; what a myth that is.

I currently have an S3 in work that is fitted with a 2.88 ratio diff behind the original 4 speed gearbox and its a delight to drive in all situations. As a test, I've dropped down to 10mph and then accelerated away; the V12 has the torque to handle that with ease, without stress. Driving through towns at idle in fourth gear is absolutely no problem.

The owner of this car also has a MK2 at work with me, fitted with a 4.2 XJ6 engine and Toyota Supra W58 ratio (0.783 final ratio), 5 speed gearbox. I find driving this car tedious with the fifth gear; its just an extra gear to negotiate to get to top and in the majority of cases, I'll bypass 4th gear and go straight to 5th. Cars with torque like any of the XK engines, or the V12 don't need extra gears. The only justification I can think of is if you're going to go racing, or you're a Café racer and you like swapping gears.

Regards,

Bill

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#14 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by mgcjag » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:00 pm

Hi Russ...you can put your figures through this calculator https://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_speed_rpm.htm
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#15 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Barry » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:27 pm

Top gear (4th) with a 2.88 diff I am doing 3000 revs at 75. It works out at 25mph per 1000 revs. However, I am running 16”x 7” wheels with 225/60 Tyres.

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#16 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by AussieEtype » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:57 am

sideways60 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:43 am

Im also Surprised The Aussie's Haven't come up with An Option as they have a Huge Choice of Falcon/Commodore 5 and 6 Speed Boxes ? ,

Thanks Russ
We do - there are a few people who slap together a BWT5/Tremec with a Dellow bell housing and their own rear housing - its not that difficult. Mal Woods in Queensland the Australian Tremec expert can make something up with his unique rear housing that has the lever in the right spot - the Spiteri in Melbourne sell a 6cylinder kit that is but together by Mal Woods and onsold at extreme profit.

Mal will even put together a T56 6speed with your choice of 5 and 6 speed gears on the back of a Jag v12 - he will fabricate what is needed to get the lever in the right spot and the right drive at the back.

The T56 is a bit longer than a T5 but not longer than a standard 4 speed with overdrive so he says it will fit but may require modifications to the transmission tunnel etc.

Some say that a 5 speed or a 6 speed in not needed behind a V12 and that may be true but the standard V12 by modern standards is low power and low torque and the fact that we use 6 speed manual boxes behind our later Holden V8s that have much more power and torque shows why these boxes would work well behind a V12 if they fit.

So we do have options in Aust if you know where to look, however if you want a kit that is complete and ready to go then realistically you look outside Australia.

I was looking at a Motronics JT5 a couple of years back when they were still being produced but shyed away from them as the business refused to even respond to queries so not a good business model - no longer being made and maybe poor business practices is part of the reason.

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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#17 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Fspp369 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:33 am

Sideways60
I am pleased to say I have an EFI v12,4sp with overdrive and a 2:88 diff ....easy peasy!
Just do it!

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#18 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by sideways60 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:11 am

Umm Fspp369 ,

Nice ,

So at 70 your doing 2250 rpm in OD ? , But the Gear Stick comes up in the Wrong Place ? .

Russ

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#19 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by mgcjag » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:37 am

Hi Russ...to keep the gear lever in the correct place if you use an XJ6 gearbox and overdrive you replace the gearbox top cover for an e type one
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#20 Re: From 4 to 5 Speed , but Which one ?

Post by Fspp369 » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am

The best guy to ask, in my limited experience, is Brian Reed at the JEC.
He has an encyclopaedic knowledge of the jaguar range and is a good man to know.

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