Original engine or upgrade?

Talk about the E-Type Series 3

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dxke38
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#1 Original engine or upgrade?

Post by dxke38 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:31 pm

Hi all, just a quick question to consider. My ser 3 2+2 is giving the usual problems re rough running, carb issues and ignition woes. I usually cope with them all but I am getting tired of it. I have an HE engine from an XJS along with all ancillaries and wiring. The question is do I upgrade the car from original engine considering its number 45 off the line and in good condition, or will this detract from its value and history. Will the benefits be worth it? Any thoughts gratefully considered.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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chrisfell
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#2 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by chrisfell » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:39 pm

I’d bung the HE engine in and enjoy the car. Then maybe carefully and slowly rebuild the original engine. Wouldn’t want to throw it away, and the next owner can decide whether to re install it before Greta Thunberg has all Dino-fuelled engines confiscated.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

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dxke38
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#3 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by dxke38 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:09 pm

You could be right Chris. The thing is that mechanics wise the engine is fine, it just needs constant fettling to keep it going. I take your point about dino fuel cars. wonder how long it will be before we're all made to feel guilty when driving a V12.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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abowie
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#4 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by abowie » Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:56 am

Yeah do the transplant. It's only time and effort and I reckon the HE engine might be really nice in your E.

If it sucks you can always go back and as long as you keep the original engine you lose nothing in resale value.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#5 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by abowie » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:08 am

Or you could do this. I actually have a spare set with manifolds....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deCEQ42SgCA
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#6 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by rossco_j » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:24 am

abowie wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:08 am
Or you could do this. I actually have a spare set with manifolds....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deCEQ42SgCA
Andrew,
Is the XJS in the video ex Queensland? I notice the GEAR sticker on the drivers side.
Ross
1972 Series 3 E Type 2+2
1972 MGB GT
1965 Mini Cooper
https://rossjohnsonphotography.zenfolio.com/

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#7 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by lowact » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:35 am

Oh boy, this topic is going to be huge ...
I'm up to my elbows in a HE upgrade as we speak, so have been considering the implications for a long time now ....
At least 3 subtopics:
For how much longer will will be able to drive our cars?
What effect will upgrade reduce the value?
Will upgrade make noticeable difference?

Subtopic #1:
Here in oz people are tired of climate change impacts in the same way u r tired of carbs. The arable belt around the perimeter of the country is inexorably shrinking, increasing number of inland communities are on life-support; water trucked in, massive social issues as livelihoods are lost. Bushfire season hasn't even started and we've already lost more than 2 million hectares, e.g. bigger than Wales in Britain. People have being burned to death trying to defend what they'd battled their whole life to build, others have been roasted alive in their cars, unable to flee fast enough. This is really, really bad shit (feel the emotion, go easy on the quips). All assessments are that its going to get steadily worse until it rains which is not predicted this year at the earliest. Youthful passion may be entertaining or irritating, but when the prol gets emotional, rapid change becomes the political imperative, rationality is the early casualty. So short answer is, from this side of the world, maybe not very long at all.
Initially there may be dispensation for classic cars but this may be highly qualified, i.e. only for car club events and only if original design (unmodified). I'm depending on there being some remnant of rationality that extends dispensation to modified classic cars that are demonstrably cleaner and more efficient than original, this is unlikely. So smart money would be on keeping it original. Clearly I'm not smart.
I floated the idea of making it electric. Wife and daughters thought that it was a great idea. Son said he would disown me, that an e-type would be nothing without it's V12 (sorry crippled cousins).

Subtopic #2:
Compared to modern cars, an e-type is a tractor. Relatively: hard to use (get in/out of), hot, noisy, scary, crude, inconvenient, inefficient, smelly, slow, expensive and unsafe.
Simplistically, prospective buyers come in two flavours; those who are satisfied just to own their classic car, and those who need to drive them. The former value immaculate originality, even the above "quirkiness". The latter (e.g. me) also want driving convenience. Trouble is it is the former that set the price.
The argument, keep the old engine, is not a simple solution. The HE doesn't just drop in, block is different (bellhousing) and you need a lot of the original bits (sump, oil filter and cooler) exhausts, etc. So u end up using bits of both and are left with a large crate of parts, maybe enough to support the argument that the mod can be reverted, but difficult to attribute any value in this, considering the cost of reversion while there are immaculate original alternatives.
So yes, modding yr car will improve it but will also reduce it's value, no question, live with it. Otherwise, if resale value is important to you, sell immediately.

Subtopic #3:
Per the question, the desire (as with me) is for improved driving (ownership) convenience. Depending on yr views about Topic #1, there may be interest in this including emissions (cleanliness) improvement. This was my justification for changing what was an utterly original car. I imagine others have had the same goal however I have not heard of any standout successes.
The HE is the only way to achieve significant efficiency and cleanliness improvement. HE's are lean-burn engines, able to run on air-fuel ratios better than "stoic" (14.7). Enables 30% better fuel efficiency in addition to loads more useful torque. Its an upgrade no-brainer. To improve cleanliness requires catalytic converters, despite that these have limited effectiveness at air-fuel ratios greater than stoic.
I started out intending a conversion of my matching numbers car to HE by fitting pistons, liners, heads, ecu, efi and ignition bits off my HE donor car. Very quickly learned that it would be more improvement, less expensive and much more effective to instead adopt the very latest (not 30 yo) technology, so that's what I'm doing, i expect to have the cleanest most efficient e-type on the planet. 8-)
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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PeterCrespin
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#8 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:32 am

Roger Bywater, ex-Jaguar engine development guru, has written a booklet on switching E V12s to fuel injection. Well worth getting. Google AJ6 Engineering. Hid book on modern engine technology is also highly informative.
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#9 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by dxke38 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:25 pm

Pheeeeee-eew, Thankyou for giving me lots to think about. I have already done loads of work on this car, new drivers side floor, bare metal repaint. Whilst the engine was out I removed the suspension and overhauled it, repainted the frames and bulkhead and actually checked out the engine although I only did repairs on the cyl heads, exhaust valves renewed and all valves reground and shimmed. The car had a new Barratts distributor fitted a few years back which has caused timing issues and the carbs are becoming hard to tune although I have serviced them as required. When I got the car running after all this work I found that it was running very rich and popping and banging at times and its taken so long to improve that the HE engine in the garage became a tempting alternative. I think I'll drag it out and see how much work is involved with the change over.
Thanks again for the comments. I want to use it a bit more before I start to feel too guilty. :seeingstars:
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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#10 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by 71 V12 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:20 pm

Given the time and money you have already put into the original engine I would be inclined to agree - best option is to make it work properly.

I rebuilt my Strombergs twelve years ago and fitted the Barratt dizzy and module at the same time. Besides replacing the carb damper seals, the system has remained utterly reliable.

The only advice I could add is every item of rubber in the breather system must be leak free, including the big one the left bank and the bung at the front of the right bank. Also make sure all the small inlet manifold tubes that connect to the cold start vacuum devices in the air filter cases are properly blanked off.

The fact the car is fitted with the original matching numbers engine to the car does affect the value of the car should you ever wish to sell.

Good luck.

Kevin

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#11 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by AussieEtype » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:51 pm

I am no rivet counter but the cars are what they are - now a very acceptable classic warts and all.

To me - make the car run with the carbs - once set up they stay tuned and run well - mine have only been touched once in 30 years and still work OK (but need looking at again) - I also have the same carbs on my LR 101 FC and they are fine.

Really my view is that leave the car as is - get it sorted by an expert - if you want a V12 HE convertible then get an XJS or the equivalent Aston Martin. However I also believe that while you own a car you can do what you want to it as it is your car - have is as you want but for me the bare bones of the vehicle should remain as original.

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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#12 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by dxke38 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:23 am

Thanks guys, I've checked out the HE engine and downloaded Roger Bywaters instructions on the change over.
I've decided to stick with the original engine and persevere with getting it to run as it should. I'm not too concerned that the car would lose some value if I upgraded, it's more that as the car is a very early V12 I feel that it has interest in being original. I recently visited the Jaguar museum in Gaydon to check on details of the early ser 3 and the car they had didn't have the original engine details. That and your comments have convinced me to restoring the car to original spec. I'll try to post some photo's to show what I'm up against.
Thanks again for helping me make a decision.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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#13 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by lowact » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:33 pm

Another consideration, and its a biggie, is whether the steering has been converted. If the steering wheel is on the right hand side and the chassis number is 1S..., strictly speaking it's not a "matching numbers" car, no cashed-up rivet counter would have anything to do with it. In which case mod away, improvements can only increase its value. The chassis number is on that tag at the side of the windscreen as well as on the id plate riveted to the bulkhead. It is also (most permanently and reliably) stamped into the surface of the sloping bulkhead under the heater.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#14 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by dxke38 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:31 pm

Hi Colin. If my car is not an original RHD car and numbers matching then I would certainly consider the engine upgrade. Why do you think it may not be? It is RHD, not converted from LHD, and the number is 1S50045
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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#15 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by lowact » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:48 pm

Appologies, you are correct, I keep forgetting that the 2+2's had different numbering system.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#16 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by dxke38 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:47 pm

No worries, you had me worried for a minute. Nearly changed plans.
Derek
64 ser 1 fhc, 71 ser 3 2+2.

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#17 Re: Original engine or upgrade?

Post by AussieEtype » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:57 am

You having the 45th RHD FHC off the line I can understand your concern about issues related to changing an engine. I have the 11th RHD OTS and it is always in the back of mind when I do stuff to the car - I keep everything, even still have to original wrecked carpet and underlay.

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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