Fuel injection on the V12 engine

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abowie
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#1 Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:05 pm

Can I ask those who have done this what ECU/controller they have used?

I may put injection back on my race car (XJS) rather than run with the downdraft Webers.

I would ideally like to use a modern programmable injector and timing controller. I have been looking on the Net but I am struggling to find something that will work properly with 12 cylinders. Partly I suspect this is because I don't properly understand what's needed.

I am not averse to buying a "kit" if such a thing exists, but I'm sure with guidance I could build one if nothing appropriate is available.

Any help or advice would be most welcome.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#2 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by lowact » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:32 pm

I’m in the process, using an Adaptronic M6000 ECU. Easily operates 12 cylinders, if fully optioned can do 24 cylinders sequentially fueled with direct fire (coil on plug) sequential ignition, or any lesser configuration. I’ll be using twin MAP sensors, fuel temp and pressure sensors, twin wide-band O2 sensors and a knock sensor for closed loop adaptive control of both fuel and spark. Fyi here is current wiring diag, not complete, is work in progress, broken lines signify routes of parallel separate wiring …
Image

Adaptronic is Australian, respond to all queries in detail in less than 24 hrs. Software is fully configurable by owners, imo this ECU is no brainer for all road V12’s. Race cars maybe different story however. Race cars run rich at WOT virtually all of the time with no O2 feedback; for this, stick with the Webers?
Last edited by lowact on Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#3 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:53 pm

lowact wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:32 pm
. Race cars run rich at WOT virtually all of the time with no O2 feedback; for this, stick with the Webers?
At this stage I haven't even driven it on a track yet so I'm really just working out what my potential options are.

If the Webers work well I'd stick with them, but the problem is if they don't. Going down the rabbit hole of trying to get the Webers set up might make the EFI route look more appealing.

Showing my ignorance, if I have O2 sensors can I not choose how rich to run it at full throttle?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#4 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:58 pm

I can't quite read the injector/coil/O2 sensor part nos on the diagram. What have you chosen?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#5 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by lowact » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:33 am

Yes you can choose how rich to run at full throttle, ECU/EFI can do everything yr webers can and more, it’s just that the “more” is massively improved part load efficiency which would be wasted on anything not road registered. O2 sensors provide the feedback for closed loop control. For all ECU’s, closed loop control can be disabled. Even when it is enabled there are (configurable) conditions that must be met before it is used. One of these is throttle opening. ECUs are always configured, above around 70 – 80 % throttle, closed loop control is not used. This is not just for performance, to drive hard for extended period, rich AFR is needed to reduce engine overheating. This is true for all cars but particularly for Jag V12’s.

Coils are NGK U5118 as were developed for BMW S65 engines, 12:1 compression & 8000 rpm so should be ok for my 12.5:1 (HE) engine. I'll have to fabricate a more elegant throttle pedestal and would need to relocate my AC compressor if I had one. The price of engine art. Alternatively any CnP (Coil near Plug) instead of CoP (coil on Plug) with built in igniter that is designed for high comp engines could be used, e.g. LS1 coils …

Injectors are the originals, Bosch 0280150164.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#6 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by jagwit » Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:39 pm

lowact wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:33 am

Injectors are the originals, Bosch 0280150164.
Are you using current limit resistors?
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 E-type V12, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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Barry
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#7 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by Barry » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:56 am

Visit Roger Bywater’s web site on AJ6 Engineering for converting an engine to Fuel injection
mailto:aj6engineering@ntlworld.com
You will see the 6.0 litre engine photographed on his website. My car uses the AJ6 ECU with Bosch injectors, and AJ6 larger throttle bodies.
Hope that helps, and good luck with the project.
Barry

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#8 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by jagwit » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:47 am

I have fuel injected 3 Jag V12 engines(and numerous v8s) using Megasquirt-2. In all 3 cases I implemented ECU controlled ignition timing - which, IMO is the biggest "win" on any carburetted engine - bigger than fuel injection.

This last statement was again proven when I implemented a Bluetooth 123Ignitions distributor on a friend's S1 4.2 E-type ( 3 SUs.)

If you travel more than 100km per trip, sustaining speeds of 100km /h or more, an overdrive solution is an even bigger win AFTER implementation of vacuum ADVANCE on your distributor. In this scenario, I'm saying that money is better spent on an overdrive solution than efi.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 E-type V12, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#9 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:50 am

Philip can you give me an overview of exactly what you used and how you set it up?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#10 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by jagwit » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:11 am

I used a Megasquirt-2 (daughter board) on a megasquirt v3 motherboard built for low impedance injectors (std HE jag v12 Injectors). This is one of the "beauty" aspects of MS-2: Its ability to elegantly/efficiently drive low impedance injectors. The on board Manifold Pressure (MAP) sensor determines engine load.

The original Throttle position sensor, coolant temp sensor and intake air temp sensors be used - provided they all work correctly.

It is necessary to mount a 36-1 trigger wheel to the crank pulley as well as a Variable Reluctance sensor (aka magnetic pickup).

The MS2 can be built with 1 ignition output that will already give you good control of ignition timing albeit still using the dissy. DON'T LET ANYONE TELL YOU TO LOCK OUT THE CENTRIFUGAL ADVANCE!! Not doing so helps to improve rotor tip overlap with the dissy cap terminals. This would be an uncomplicated ignition solution. This solution will also allow you to implement full time barometric fuel compensation - essential if your car is going to experience altitude changes of more than 100m up or down.

Alternatively, if you want a distributor less solution, the MS2 can be built with 6 ignition outputs with which to implement a wasted spark ignition system. Use 4-channel Bosch ignition drivers to drive the coils. With 6 ignition outputs, ms2 won't also support full time barometric compensation (not enough inputs). This would force you to MS3.

MS3 can only handle low impedance injectors with additional peak and hold boards ($$$) and is substantially more complicated than MS2 (which is already a challenge for an EFI beginner)
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 E-type V12, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#11 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by MarekH » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:52 pm

I am running MS3/3X with low impedance injectors via a custom built peak and hold box. There are some (thumbnail) pictures on the jag-lovers.com old website photo albums.

The last v12s had Nippon Denso ECUs which drove high impedance injectors, so if you search you should be able to find both high and low impedance injectors which fit the manifolds and flow 190cc/min.

The main consideration you should consider with such an upgrade is the ability to datalog results. It means if you have a problem, you can usually look at it afterwards and trace back to find the anomaly causing your problem. Not all of the solutions suggested on this thread allow that and so you would be dependent on vendor support should your car break down.

kind regards
Marek

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#12 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:01 pm

Excellent. Thanks to you all.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#13 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by jagwit » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:36 am

MarekH wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:52 pm

The main consideration you should consider with such an upgrade is the ability to datalog results.

kind regards
Marek
Marek has touched on an extremely important matter. The importance of data logging should not be underestimated.

Along with that, excellent documentation and tech support goes without saying.

Another highly important aspect is having a good PC app with which to do the tuning.

Here in SA, we have several locally developed ECUs for engine management, but sadly, PC app, datalogging, documentation and support is severely lacking.
Best Regards
Philip
Jag: 72 E-type V12, 80 XJS (Megasquirt + 5sp manual O/D)
Jensen: 74 Interceptor (EFI by Megasquirt + O/D 4sp auto)
Chev: 59 Apache std, 70 C10 (350V8, 700R4)

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#14 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by AussieEtype » Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:40 am

Also unfortunately here in Australia, Megasquirt has no support and the documentation and forums are not very good. If you are into ECU development etc it might be OK but if you need support, Aust is not the place to do MS.

If was going to use MS for my Rover V8 and have the ECU etc but it is all too hard so I will most likely cut my losses and go the Adaptronic unit as we have a local dealer to provide help and seems to do all that MS3X can do.

Garry
1971 Series 3 E-type OTS

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#15 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by lowact » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:26 pm

jagwit wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:39 pm
Are you using current limit resistors?
Injectors are pulse width modulated. High or low impedance is irrelevant with modern, aftermarket ECUs. Adaptronic have library of injector characterization data, ours of course is not one of them so I have commissioned characterisiation tests, data includes flowrate vs fuel pressure, also dead times (ms) vs voltage and fuel pressure.
MarekH wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:52 pm
The main consideration … is the ability to datalog results. Not all of the solutions suggested on this thread allow that
Which solution are you referring to? Adaptronic provides for complete datalogging in CSV or proprietary binary format, with log converter and log viewer apps for the binary files. Also auto logging of any detected “exceptions” (faults)
PC app is comprehensive, including configurable gauge panels and built in oscilloscope functionality, etc.
AussieEtype wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:40 am
Adaptronic unit ... seems to do all that MS3X can do.
My assessment is that it does very much more, there’s really no comparison, performance, functionality and support. Will be interesting to see show this translates.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#16 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by MLBS3V12 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:38 am

I was initially on the way to use a modern EFI/Ignition solution to manage my XJS V12 on my S3 E Type. I finally decided to keep the original Lucas and Marelly equipements which come with the engine.

During my research on the web I have found what looks like a solution to avoid easily the low impedance injectors

First is this kind of hose tail injector with the same shape that the original ones BUT with high impedance and enough fuel for the V12.

Image

Second is a solution to use modern O ring injectors and fit them on the original fuel rail just like the original ones.

https://www.efihardware.com/products/23 ... il-adapter
Image

These 2 solutions help to keep the engine close from its original look.
Le chemin sera long!...

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#17 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:41 pm

Thanks for that Garry.

I'm about ready to get the car out onto the track. Probably in a month or so. Then I'll see how well the current IDA Weber setup works.

however I'm keen to have a go at injection anyway both for the fun of it, and also because it will let me remove the ugly bonnet the car currently needs to clear the Webers.


Image
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#18 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by MarekH » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:04 pm

Do also remember that the 6litre fuel rail is different to the previous v12 fuel rails, so you can use non hose barbed injectors that way. See my photo albums on jag-lovers.com old website.

The Roger Bywater route gives you no datalogging and buys into 1980s technology.

The advantage of MS is that you don't need to invent or investigate anything new. Just copy Philip or myself lock, stock and barrel and it'll run exactly like our cars do. The MS forum (msextra.com) is well supported and the new rival products generally come in where MS was five years ago.

The Achilles heel of MS is in the quality of the connectors and a couple of the components on the main board are badly laid out were to need to repair a unit. If you are not interested in the learning experience, then MS is not for you, i.e. some other manufacturer will have to provide you with support, but remember that this comes at a price. My entire fuel injection cost ~GBP1500 and the same again for LPG (propane). This is a fully sequential system with twin idle valves, four lambda sensors, 12 EGT sensors, a lot of extra electronics and a CAN network all built in to that cost.

kind regards
Marek

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#19 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by abowie » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:11 pm

MarekH wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:04 pm
If you are not interested in the learning experience,
kind regards
Marek
Part of the exercise is to learn about this stuff so I'm not bothered by complexity.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia

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#20 Re: Fuel injection on the V12 engine

Post by lowact » Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:00 am

abowie wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:11 pm
Part of the exercise is to learn about this stuff so I'm not bothered by complexity.
Exactly my rationale.
MLBS3V12 wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:38 am
I was initially on the way to use a modern EFI/Ignition solution ... During my research on the web I have found what looks like a solution to avoid easily the low impedance injectors... First is this kind of hose tail injector with the same shape that the original ones BUT with high impedance and enough fuel for the V12.
Image
If you are using the original ECU you maybe have no option but to use the original injectors? The high impedance injector you are proposing has flowrate 280 cc/min compared to the original injectors 190 cc/min, also will have different open/close characteristic. So, with the original ECU these injectors would be squirting ~50% more fuel than required? You would need an aftermarket ECU with the pulse width adjusted.
MarekH wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:04 pm
See my photo albums on jag-lovers.com old website.
The advantage of MS is that you don't need to invent or investigate anything new. Just copy Philip or myself
With my 12.5:1 CR engine, I want to try closed loop (knock sensor) and adaptive control of sequential ignition timing. MS can't do this?
Links to yr albums appear broken unfortunately, I guess due to move to their new site?
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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