An interesting state of Model years

[Mosboss]

So I went looking for the Pertronix Ignition on their website for the S3 The site asks for the Year model etc, so as to check conformity
So based on the car number of my S3 it is a 1970 manufactured unit based on the Heritage one page listing of engine/chassis number, starting with 1S70001 till February 1971, starting 1S 70524, mine is 1S70308 BW so before February 1971 Early in the production run of S3's
The Pertronix website does not recognise a 5.3 manufactured in 1970 but it does if you click on the 1971 year model, it is not the first time I come across that on USA based parts vendors
Can anyone throw a light as to why is that? Is it that no S3 found their way to the USA until 1971? most likely but they were produced in 1970
Also what is the BW at the Chassis number stands for?
Curious to have some explanation if anyone here knows I am sure someone does
Thanks
C

[Mosboss]

Found out that BW stands for Borg Warner gear box Just read the single page again Alzheimer's is setting in I think. Ha

[vee12eman]

Hi,
The launch date of the S3 was April 1 1971, but some cars were built before that to build up stock. My S3 FHC (2+2 if you prefer), was built in January 1971 and is the 97th RHD FHC. Like your car, it has the suffix. BW, indicating a Borg Warner auto. To all intents and purposes, both your car and mine are 1971 models, both I believe have none of the later modifications. Some of the earliest of these include a different starter motor, matching a flywheel with a different number of teeth. I can’t remember the details and numbers of teeth, but it is documented on here. I converted my car to manual and obtained a new flywheel, presumably a later spec, but fortunately also replaced the starter motor with a high torque unit which matches. A lucky coincidence I guess. Early water pumps also differ and it’s hard to get replacement or rebuild components, but it should still be possible.
I believe you are in Australia, where the S3 did not arrive until 1972, I believe. My car came over with me on migration some years back.

[Mosboss]

Thank you for that information So by that historical bit we can say that there are no S3 series cars ever sold in 1970 even though they were produced in that year
I wonder if there was any registered anywhere in 1970 as such as it seems to me that model year was determined by registration year rather than date produced
Just another bit of information to add to the confusion about E type Jaguar production dates as well as serial numbers etc etc
I am waiting for the Heritage certificate to arrive that may throw some further light/confusion to this particular car, Its all very interesting to me tracing back its history, I don't think it will make it go better just nice to have all the obscure details of it
Cheers
C

[AussieEtype]

MosBoss - what makes you think that your car was built in 1970? Any particular documentation?

I just had a look at your car on XKE Data and while no build date is given it does indicate it is a 1971 model. Oh and I recognise your car from the auction site.

Scrolling back through earlier cars than yours the few cars previous build dates are Jan 71 and Feb 71 - eg 306 is build date Jan 71, 304 is the same, 291 is actually Feb 71, - you have to go back to car 267 to find a build date of 20 Nov 71. 266 is also 20 Nov 71 and 257 is the day before.

So based on this data your car was most likely built in Jan 71 - after yours 326 is Jan 71. However to shoot the logic down, 373 some 65 cars later than yours was built 1 Dec 70 and a few others around this number were built in Dec 70 as well.

I would still go with Jan 71 as a build as cars around your number were built then but as you are waiting for it, the Heritage Certificate will tell all

The one common thing is that irrespective whether they were built in 70 or 71, the date says they are all 71 Models.

Goof luck

Garry

[Mosboss]

Thanks, sure I have yet to see a S3 car referred to as 1970, it is still the case with confusing or inaccurate built dates
The Heritage single page PDF on the net, indicates the following
Jaguar E-type Series 3 V12
First chassis number by year
Year Model
Open Two-Seater RHD Open Two-Seater LHD 2+2 RHD 2+2 LHD
1970 1S 20001 (December) 1S 50001 (Unknown month) 1S 70001 (Unknown month)
1971 1S 1001 (February) 1S 20005 1S 50065 1S 70524
1972 1S 1210 1S 20169 1S 50968 1S 72662
1973 1S 1681 1S 21689 1S 51618 1S 74351
1974 1S 2649 1S 24476
Last 1S 2872 (June 1974) 1S 26120 (June 1974) 1S 52116 (August 1973) 1S 75183 (July 1973)

From the above it list's a production date of some 524 LHD cars made from Unknown month 1970 to February 1971 beginning? end?
Will know when the certificate arrives of course, regardless, based on the above there were cars built in 1970
In so far as the XKE data is concerned the information was uploaded by the fella that imported the car into Australia not a bad thing
It is not in its original colours, just like my other car the 2+2 also an import, both had a "car yard" spray job done on them rather poorly although the S3 is better, it was done in the USA, the 2+2 was done here by some cheap back-yard operator who advertises on Facebook a $2300 full respray, very poor result,
Both cars were imported by two different ppl for the single purpose of resale to make some money, if they did or not I do not know but for what I paid it is not that far from breaking even or make a little
I did not have to take the arduous journey of importing them myself which is fine,
At the end of the day it is a case of dealing with a 50 plus year old cars, may be many owners, some changes good or bad that's the case with most cars out there
Both my cars have solid bones, they have very few alterations away from original definitely no structural issues from alterations the S3 ex CA, found abandoned and dried up, got some photos of it as found than some photos of it getting resprayed
The 2+2 ex Indiana held by one owner for many years lots of receipts for work done to it, he took good care of it, no visible rust, but all shall be revealed when the stripping down is completed
The S3 its first in line the other can wait its turn, Ill drive it in the "ditch" in the meantime
So meanwhile I am happy to get in the deep end so as to educate myself in most aspects of these lovely cars
Thanks
and
best
C

[AussieEtype]

You car presented very well on the auction site and I think you got a bit of a bargain there - relatively easy to convert to RHD but I would be driving as left hand drive until you have accumulated all the necessary bits and then get it done quickly.

XKE Data clearly shows cars were built in 1970 and irrespective of what your Heritage Certificate says your body certainly would have been made in 1970 even if the car was not completed until later.

LHD cars and in particular FHC were made well before RHD cars. My 71 OTS is the 11th RHD car and it was not built until Aug 71, so even though it is a very early car it was built much later than yours.

Not sure of the practice at the time, but most Model Years (MY) run from mid year the previous year and if followed would explain why the 70 build cars are 71 MY.

Oh I just got my Heritage Certificate for my XJC and due to poor packaging - just a thin cardboard backing it had been bent and was all creased - oh well a bit of heat from the iron should fix it.

Good luck with your car

Garry

[christopher storey]

I think the point which has been missed here is that the V12 was not announced until ( if I remember correctly ) about April/May 1971, so irrespective of when they were built, no cars would be sold - or registered - before the spring ( northern hemisphere) of 1971

[Mosboss]

Not sure if the point is missed at all, MY means Manufactured Year so thats the point Not when a car was sold, we are trying to ascertain, narrow down when these particular cars were built Its part of the fun, nothing more than that
Cheers
And
Best
Chris

[AussieEtype]

Sorry Chris MY does not mean Manufactured Year - it is Model Year - as I indicated these days that means from the previous year and did apply to many cars back in the 50s. Eg I have two Land Rovers made in 1955 but they are 56 MY - EH Holden was MY 64 but was released in 63 - I believe but am not sure the same applies to Jags.

But this does not really matter - you have a 71 Etype - enjoy it.

[Mosboss]

Thanks Garry
Sure the price for both cars was right but both bought with my mind very clear of issues to be dealt with,
That particular site is not for the faint of heart, the buyer is strictly relying on the honesty of the seller
There is no inspection prior, so it is a case of a pig in the bag, if you are the winning bidder you get the sellers details to finish the transaction
No amount of photos will tell anyone the mechanical state of the vehicle or any other issues it may have, the S3 was pulled off the road after about 100 miles with a bad auto, a sump full of metal fillings
The 2+2 had a "car yard" spray job done here by some guy that charges $2300 for a paint job, it has a very noisy thrust bearing or reverse gear rattle, both cases engine out jobs
It is of no great concern to me as my intentions were to restore both of them any way, the plan was
to start on the 2+2, since I have all the bits for it, drive the S3 in the "ditch" for a while, not how things turned out so it is now the other way around
Both cars were imported by the sellers with the view of making a killing on resale not to restore or keep so thats the background, I dare say they may have broken even or made a bit of money on them,
On the face of it I am glad they did the whole importing nightmare rather than myself , I think I done well so I leave it at that
Cheers
And
Best
Chris

[Mosboss]

Garry thanks for the clarification, MY for whatever reason I thought it was manufactured year rather than model year
So further to my post about the mentioned site here are some pics of the 2+2 that were found on the net, a far cry of what was said about it or on how the car presented itself after a paint job,
Believe me a far cry from the actual description
A paint brush would have done a better job than what these people did
At the end of the day when a decent paint job is around the $15-20 K if you are lucky, what are you going to get for $2300??
Cheers
and
Best
Chris

[Mosboss]

Well Interesting bit of information
From the Jaguar heritage site about the S3

"WHP 205J was one of the earliest E-type V12 cars, built in August 1970, the tenth right-hand drive 2+2 coupé by its chassis number, and the Regency Red car was originally part of Jaguar’s press fleet. It had its moment of fame when it was used with a Jaguar jet fighter aircraft to create some dramatic photos! It has been retained as part of the Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust collection ever since."

So there was 10 of them in August e type S3's registered in 1970!! Besides this WHP 205J it be interesting to find what of the other 9 plus any more that may have been sold in 1970
I wonder if the UK authorities jumped a year and called it 1971, ha, still interesting regardless

The link to the page
https://www.jaguarheritage.com/car/1970 ... -whp-205j/

[MarekH]

At the end of the day when a decent paint job is around the $15-20 K if you are lucky, what are you going to get for $2300??

If you do all of the prep work yourself and strip all of the chrome off of the car yourself, then it is perfectly possible to get a good job done very cheaply. At the end of the day, the quality will be down to how good the undersurface is, not how it was sprayed. If you walk in and expect to spend 20k, no painter is going to disabuse you of your opinions...he'll check his diary.

So there was 10 of them in August e type S3's registered in 1970!! Besides this WHP 205J it be interesting to find what of the other 9 plus any more that may have been sold in 1970

Perhaps 4 (or 6?) of the early cars can be accounted for as the 6cylinder series3 cars. Then there would probably have been several press cars and a few crash tests.

kind regards
Marek

[Mosboss]

Hi all
Looks like it may just about pay ship the shell and bonnet over to the uk for a paint job, well almost!
So my few phone calls to respected spray painters around town checking out an approximate price for the job yielded the following
Minimum $30K from a good spray shop, Another shop said they will not even look at it for less than $50K and the highest over the phone chat with another fella was no less than $80K most likely or closer to $100 for a top notch job he said, and a few others anywhere in between
I have no idea what the cost is over in the UK but judging by Marek's comments it appears to be significantly less even at the $15-20 K I imagined it was on my previous post
I suppose at the amount that ppl earn in this country plus the shortage of skilled ppl one does expect to pay a lot more than some other places, to what extend is the cost difference between Aus and UK i have no idea, Marek's suggestion to do the prep work myself did cross my mind
Not sure that I want to go down the rabbit hole of preparing the car myself than present it for the final application of paint
Mechanicals and electrical work not an issue for me, body and paint not so good so I have to leave it to others, one needs to know his limitations
Cheers
And
Best
Chris