Front suspension

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peters3103
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#1 Front suspension

Post by peters3103 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:36 am

Hi gents,
A little bit each day, no matter how small. Some progress with the front suspension. Upper wishbones being sent for nylon cup upper ball joint fitment. The upper fulcrum shaft inner washers on mine are countersunk. Correct?
If so, does it sit against the shaft or the bush? I didn’t pay enough attention when I dismantled them.
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abowie
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#2 Re: Front suspension

Post by abowie » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:37 am

I've not seen countersunk washers.

I suppose I'd fit it with the countersink to the bush so that the flat side can sit flush against the fulcrum shaft.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
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#3 Re: Front suspension

Post by peters3103 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:32 am

That would explain why I can’t find a reference to it. Perhaps I’ll get some new ones.
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Robbiee
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#4 Re: Front suspension

Post by Robbiee » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:09 am

Your picture shows a couple of brackets, maybe related to fitting brake calipers ? I’ve not seen them before and certainly not on either of my S1 cars.
They’re the ones I’ve highlighted on your photo
Can you enlighten me please?
Regards
Robbie
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#5 Re: Front suspension

Post by peters3103 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:16 am

Hi Robbie,
Yes, you’re correct, they were modified to fit S2 callipers sometime before my ownership.

Cheers,
Pete
61 FHC
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#6 Re: Front suspension

Post by mgcjag » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:43 am

Hi Pete.....the shafts have a chamfer..so should give you a clue.....Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#7 Re: Front suspension

Post by peters3103 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:56 am

Very slight if at all Steve. Interesting there’s no reference I can find and all the photos online don’t show them being countersunk.
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#8 Re: Front suspension

Post by mgcjag » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:42 am

Hi Pete...i was refering to the lower shaft.....photo of the ends of a lower wishbone shaft....note the chamfer and the different length of the reduced section ....Steve
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#9 Re: Front suspension

Post by peters3103 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:07 am

Thanks Steve, yes I’m aware of the difference in lengths as your picture shows and have assembled the lowers correctly and I’m confident the washers, upper & lower, are in their correct locations.

Pete
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rfs1957
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#10 Re: Front suspension

Post by rfs1957 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:29 pm

peters3103 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:36 am

A little bit each day, no matter how small.

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Ha, talk about a coincidence.

Image

I was doing my own version of a little bit each day, and was on my way to bed when I saw this.

I was trying to work out which arms, links, bolts, washers went where from the pile that came back from plating, having been blithely confident about a year ago that it was obvious ................

What a great Forum.

Image

None of my washers have a chafer to any bore, and they had been on the car for 30 years - and some of them are even stamped "lower" in what looks like official stamping ?

The upper fulcrumshafts don't need them, the shoulders are square, but indeed the lowers do - if tightening the castellated nuts is meant to result in an abrupt resistance.

Image

Image

I think we're talking about the above, C8693/1 ? Part 25 on Plate 20, on page 93 of the J30 reference.

There must be a list of these parts somewhere in the knowledge base, complete with thicknesses and diameters, no ? There's a right rat's nest of subtle differences and it would be reassuring to know what is the correct set of fittings and sizes.

Can David drag one up from his encyclopedic data-brain ?

If not it would be very useful to draw one up.
Rory
3.8 OTS Cream 877393 Built May 28th 1962
1978 Mini Van
(plus bevel and belt single-cylinder Ducatis)

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#11 Re: Front suspension

Post by rfs1957 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:46 pm

And while we're at it, which way do people fit the anti-roll bar bolt into the lower wishbone ?

Image

I've seen both ways used, this way has the disadvantage that the bolts become prisoners of the wishbone but I think it probably makes disassembly of the anti-roll bar simpler, and maybe you can get a spanner more easily onto the nut ?

I'm pretty sure I've had both versions on my car but can't remember why.

Over to you Australia.
Rory
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#12 Re: Front suspension

Post by abowie » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:57 pm

rfs1957 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:46 pm
And while we're at it, which way do people fit the anti-roll bar bolt into the lower wishbone ?

Over to you Australia.
I fit that bolt in from the front with the nut inside. You need to be able to manoeuvre the bolt into the sway bar because under no load there's a fair bit of torque on the bushes.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457..oops. Jezza the V12 XJS race car.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
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#13 Re: Front suspension

Post by 288gto » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:08 pm

rfs1957 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:46 pm
And while we're at it, which way do people fit the anti-roll bar bolt into the lower wishbone?
I know you like the pictures I send you Rory. As Andrew says I've put mine in from the front. Not how it is in the parts and service manual but seemed more logical to me from a fitting or replacement point of view. :shrug:

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#14 Re: Front suspension

Post by Mich7920 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:28 pm

I did the same and for the same reasons , more logical if I want to fit out and bushs replacement.
Michel
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#15 Re: Front suspension

Post by rfs1957 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:39 pm

There's indeed some confusion here, and my flippancy has not done much to dissipate it.

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Pete's CSK washer is for the upper fulcrum shaft, which as far as I know has abrupt shoulders - from my car seen above, these are new, but the 30-year old ones are the same - and so no need of a CSK washer to cope with any major radius.

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Image

Steve's pictures of shafts are for the lowers, seen above, which are asymmetrical to a far greater degree than his picture suggests, a full 8mm, in that these shafts carry triangulating arms of different thicknesses (approx 5mm difference) plus there is an extra 3mm washer thickness on the rear end.

Image

On my car the dimesnions are 89mm for one end and 97mm for the other, approximately.

None of the 5mm thick "end" washers (C8693/1, under the castellated nuts) from the lower fulcrum shafts on my car has a chamfer to cope with the pronounced taper transition on the shafts.

Image

They look very period, which doesn't make them right, and I'm not convinced the LOWER stamped on them means very much in terms of being official.

Image

None of the pictures on the web for C8693/1 (or C8693) show such a CSK either.

Can anyone throw any more light on these please ?

I think this does matter, as the crush on the rubbers will be very influenced by the way the end-washers accomodate, or not, these tapers.

There is nothing I can see in the Knowledge Base about this.
Rory
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#16 Re: Front suspension

Post by PeterCrespin » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:22 pm

CSK washers are not correct and ARB bolts are fed in from front IMO.

Bush tightening is limited by bush inner tube length. The tube and rubber are clamped between fat washers held between a fixed shaft shoulder and a thinner floating washer squashed by the castellated nut.

From memory and logic, each bush must have a washer at each side, except the front lower where it faces the lower wishbone cheek. The fat washers take the brake loads and the thin ones the opposite fore/aft loads.

Never seen stamped washers.
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#17 Re: Front suspension

Post by peters3103 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:57 pm

Thanks everyone for your invaluable input as usual. I’ll order a set of replacement non countersunk washers so as to get it right although these have done the job at least since restoration 30 years ago (whichever way they were oriented)
Bugger as I just put a little order into SNG last week. Hopefully I can find some here in Aus.

Cheers
Pete
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#18 Re: Front suspension

Post by rfs1957 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:18 am

PeterCrespin wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:22 pm

Bush tightening is limited by bush inner tube length.
Of course, glimpse of the obvious indeed.

It would be nevertheless reassuring to know what thickness the various bit ought to be.

Next time anyone can confirm washer thicknesses they found on their cars, this might help others, and I will annotate the exploded-parts drawing with some sizes.
Rory
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#19 Re: Front suspension

Post by rfs1957 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:29 am

Here's a first stab at the different washers.

It's probably Series-1 relevant only, so others had better tread carefully.

Abject apologies for rounding up/down to MM sizes but for assembly purposes this is all we need.

Where I was in any doubt I ordered some new ones from SNGB, and also had some sizes confirmed by their Steve Snape who measured them in the stores.

Image

There do not appear to be any washers with chamfers, nor any need for them, as the steel bushings in the rubbers are all compressed before the any outer washers reach the end of any of the threaded portions.

However, I'm inclined to think that there's actually a mistake in the J30 parts book, regarding the washers that are on either side of the lower shock-absorber ends ?

The illustrated washer #21 has to have a 17mm bore to pass over the sleeve, so is FW110/T and not C11193, and the one that is not illustrated - I've added it and called it "XX" - has a 13mm bore in order to sit on the threads, and abut the shoulder of the sleeve upon tightening, and so would be C11193 and not FW110/T as suggested in the parts book.

Interestingly (well, boringly) this C11193 washer is only 28mm in diameter, which is arguably unable to stop it from sliding off its bush (the shock-absorber bore is circa 28mm), whereas on the rear my car has washers that are 38mm OD - a more convincing means of keeping the shock-absorbers in place.

A table like this would have been helpful to me when I got all my parts back from the platers ; if anyone can add anything please fire away.
Rory
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#20 Re: Front suspension

Post by MSM » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:46 am

Rory

The SC Parts book is useful in that it gives nut and bolt sizes although is not helpful with washers.
Mike

S2 FHC

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