Information on my Etype's history

[PeterCrespin]

Which car do you hope that about Julian?

The green one or the gunmetal one?

The March build or the May build?

Either or neither or both are equally plausible with no VIN. Maybe both can be rebuilt. With no VINs anything is possible. Saying the car is not stolen but having no VIN is the definition of dodgy, surely?

[andrewh]

Sounds most probably to me that the one car was written off, the other stolen. A compilation of both I suspect, but which one I am not sure of from the information available. I would be seriously considering getting my money back!

[Heuer]

Robbie

Thanks for the extensive answers to my questions as it gives a fuller picture of your situation. Two things spring to mind:

1. The car may have had a s/h replacement bonnet and probably still had the number plate stuck to it, hence 5079 HJ. So the May 1962 car could be a red herring. Check to see if the bonnet has a body number on it:


2. Given JHT has told you the car was built in March 1962 the number range is going to be very small as only 26 Home delivery OTS's were made in that month - so I reckon ~ #850430 to #850460 and probably at the upper end of that range (car #850437 has engine #R4637; car #850459 has engine #R4801) and yours built 20 - 23 March. You say the VIN on the picture frame is unreadable but you are only interested in the last two digits so concentrate there. You should be able to employ a technique called 'raising a serial number' which is commonly employed by forensics when examining firearms. Various techniques are available and are described here: http://tinyurl.com/zxceb8s including the correct mixture of acid/ethanol/water/cupric chloride for etching. You could seek professional help to do this as the few hundred pounds spent would could remove all doubt from your car.



This article is specifically about raising VIN numbers:

[PeterCrespin]

Robbie did give a good account but impressions or feelings aren't relevant. We should only work with facts, because we don't get to rewind life's video.

Your chemical answer to revealing an obliterated number begs two questions:

The technique used in forensics was presumably developed to reveal what had been criminally expunged or hidden. I assume we can all agree (in Europe at least) that proper legal traceable title and identity of firearms is non-negotiable and vital in the quest to control illegal gun trading from which any of us might suffer. If my gun had had a tampered, let alone removed, serial number I'd have been given a very hard time, not a shotgun certificate. I can't think of any honorable reason for deleting a serial number on a vehicle or a gun.

2) At what time did the car lose its identity and if an ID is now discovered who owns that car? It's not merely a question of ID it's an ownership issue. If either of my stolen cars was moved abroad and the local authorities gave it a new ID before it went into storage for thirty years, that doesn't make it the legal property of someone who unearths the car later.
A paper trail of ownership relating to the claimed ID needs to be in place, not a couple of local transactions under a local registration.

I sincerely hope nobody in the UK or USA gives away any significant info. With Anders moving on and the possibility of inexperienced staff dealing with enquiries, the potential for the release of clonable data is real. As a matter of record, none of the people in America are formal archivists as far as I know, although I believe they were offered training which was refused. Mike Cook knows the cars very well though and I'm sure follows sensible protocol, but he's nearly Norman Dewis's age, so succession and the status of the archive function within Jaguar are fluid.

[cactusman]

To respond to Peter....which ever car the original poster has....presuming of course he has just one. I am guessing he bought what ever he has in good faith so from his point of view one can hope he has bought a legitimately sold single car.
However I would suspect he has some sort of mystery hybrid of at least two cars, one or both of which are extremely dodgy. Either written off or stolen or both.
If I was the poster I would now be extremely nervous.
My personal view based on the information posted....one or both cars are stolen. It is inconceivable that a legitimately restored car would have its VIN removed. With no VIN there is no way officialdom can say it is not stolen....the story presented simply does not add up. I do not think the poster has much hope of registration in the UK at least. I would be very wary of posting potential VIN numbers on here either.

[Heuer]

Robbie posted in response to a suggestion from Steve re the picture frame "I think you mean the chassis/car number ...it's hard to make it out."

If the number is on the picture frame, which Robbie says it is, then raising it will be the ultimate answer to the ultimate question and put the ID beyond reasonable doubt, certainly if JHT can confirm it matches the engine and gearbox numbers. As I pointed out he only really needs the last two digits as a March '62 car will be 8504XX. He will have a photograph to prove it and we can all sleep well. At the moment there is nothing to confirm the car (there is only one) is illegitimate. The VIN plate has been lost (easy to happen during a restoration) and the alloy body tag is gone (easy to happen if the body has been dipped) but the number is on the picture frame, although difficult to read. The 'second car' is nothing more than a UK registration number that was on a replacement bonnet. So game on for Robbie - get that VIN number from the picture frame.

I await the result with interest!

[cactusman]

Let's hope he gets the all important two digits and let's also hope those two all important digits do not reference a car that turns out to have a shady history. Best of luck ....

[andrewh]

it reminds me of a little story. My first experience of E type ownership dates back to 1974 and a call from my pals Dad to my father. He had seen a 3.8 Flat Floor advertised in the Shropshire Star for £350. Did we fancy a trip over to Kidderminster to view the car? Yes of course we did. So two Dads and two eager sons got into the BRG Series 2 XJ6 , registered HNC8N ( why do kids who love cars alway remember number plates? ...years later I saw it in a scrap yard!) . On arriving to view the car we found a pretty ratty OTS with a fibreglass bonnet. After all, this was already 12 or 13 years old and cars back then, especially Jaguars, were not meant to last much more than 3 to 5 years. It had been welded up and had household carpet inside and a wood centre dash out of a saloon. What did people do to their cars back then? Anyway, the car is still with my friends family and is now fully restored and in stunning condition. As a matter of interest I asked him the other day what the chassis number was for his Roadster. Ahh came the reply....its 860.... But thats a FHC chassis number? Yes quite. . So even back then, when the car was only 12 years old it had been well and truly messed with. Was that a stolen car that had been ringed from a FHC or other way around? Was the fact that it had a fibreglass bonnet because it had been smacked up front and fitted with a second hand picture frame from a rear ended FHC? God only knows but it makes me realise why people like matching numbers and a good history. I would be for ever worried about someone turning up and knocking on the door telling me I have their Dads E type which was stolen 40 years ago. Does it matter that its not what its purporting to be? I guess if it was stolen and the owner was paid out all those years ago, probably not, but as far as my friend is concerned he can never sell the car for what it should be worth because the numbers are all to cock.

[Heuer]

Quite a few FHC's were converted to OTS's over the years.

[andrewh]

Indeed but not back then when none of them were worth a bean. This would have been a ringed or written off bitsa. I know FHC were converted much later in the late 80s boom but I doubt any would have been done before that price boom

[cactusman]

When I was a lad the parents had a triumph Herald. Reg no XNK 869F. Doubt very much it is still about though...

[PeterCrespin]

Despite my experiences I hope by some miracle Robbie gets a road registerable car.

However, as I understand it:

1) the body tag is missing
2) the data plate is missing
3) the gearbox does not match the engine number and
4) the picture frame stamping needs forensic revelation to be read

By what stretch does revealing a former obliterated picture frame serial number make the vehicle 'that car' beyond reasonable doubt? All it does is say the picture frame was originally from a March 62 car. You can't say the body was not from the same car as the bonnet. Body dipping was not as easy 30-plus years ago and there are apparently lots of photos. Was it dipped or not? A March 62 FHC has pop-rivetted patches on the c pillars and other places. Did they fall off too?

Pete

[Heuer]

Pete - it is an OTS so the tag will be behind the number plate and vulnerable to accident damage, which this car had. JHT confirmed the engine and gearbox are matching and correct for an (as yet undisclosed) March 1962 OTS that was painted ODG. If the "difficult to read" number is revealed and passed to JHT they can confirm or deny whether it matches the engine and gearbox of the ODG car. If it does I would venture to suggest it confirms this car's identity beyond reasonable doubt. It seems there are crayon body numbers extant on some of the internal panels and if they tally with the Heritage certificate the car is as good as gold. Body tags and VIN plates are transient and can be bought stamped up from CMC/others and Classic Jaguar respectively.

[Robbiee]

Thanks David
This has been immensely useful advice
There are many cars out there that have new plates and restamped picture frames after restoration (all legitimate of course ) but very little of the original car's bodywork!
I had a new frame and floors fitted to my 1962 FHC for example.
I think that you probably correct about the number plate and it's a red herring
Certainly the matching engine gearbox and slightly unusual colour are encouraging and these numbers tally with the period you mentioned.
I'll have a good look around for crayon/chalk marks too
Many thanks
Robbie

[Heuer]

You should be able to find traces of the original colour (behind the dash and bulkhead for example) and that would further help confirm the identity. I was wrong about the rarity of the colour though, I was thinking of BRG of which only 42 3.8's were so painted. ODG appeared on 1,100 3.8 cars although today it is rarely seen. Knowing the original trim colour would break that down to 373 Beige and 494 Suede Green; remainder would have been Black, Biscuit or Tan.

[chrisfell]

Despite my experiences I hope by some miracle Robbie gets a road registerable car.

However, as I understand it:

1) the body tag is missing
2) the data plate is missing
3) the gearbox does not match the engine number and
4) the picture frame stamping needs forensic revelation to be read


Pete

Hmmmmmm!

I'm wondering how many of these indicate a dodgy car. My car:
1. Missing, just the remnants of the pop rivets left
2. Not original, is a repro created in 2002. Original data plate lost many years ago.
3. Engine not original
4. Bright and clear.

1 out of 4. At least I have an original engine frame.

[tinworm]

David, 1962 3.8 body number tags for FHC or DHC were fitted to the nearside wheelarch in front of the access cover for the fuel tank filler pipe (you need to peel back the trim to see) - not on the number plate panel.

Barrie

[andrewh]

Indeed they are. June 62 car confirms

[Heuer]

I thought the tags were on the bulkhead behind the engine of 61 and 62 cars, left hand side of the boot from 62 onwards on FHC's and in the number plate recess on the OTS. All the 4.2 cars had the tag in the number plate recess. I will do some more checking regarding the 62 onwards OTS's.

[Robbiee]

Hi all

I have now taken delivery of the long lost S1 1962 RHD OTS purchased in Holland.

Following David's advice I have had a good look around for numbers, colours etc.

I have
1. Gearbox number
2. Engine number
3. Original body colour(ODG) found under layer of silver paint and after removal of large wiring loom grommet
4. Original Tan interior on the vinyl behind the dashboard where it's trapped under the bracket that the dash is bolted to.
5. The 4 figure body number hand written possibly in pencil behind the dash near the speedo along with "Tan" written next to it...presumably unseen since 1962! (The dash was never removed during 1980 rebuild)

Mary at jaguar heritage was able to confirm that this is a genuine March 1962 car. Apparently ODG with Tan is unusual as most had beige or suede green. A body number written on the car seems to be at least as important for I/D'ing a car as a chassis number on the frame(Which can be re-stamped)

I am now the proud owner of a heritage certificate, including chassis number which is a relief.
The engine is a replacement at some stage...cast in 1961

The car has a few early features such as flat heel panels and early rear axle hubs, wishbones and drive shafts

Having found this bit of early RHD heritage I aim to restore it to original spec including colour scheme.

Thanks very much for the advice and helpful comments

The forum is terrific and I shall be consulting it for advice in future

Regards
Robbie

1962 FHC OSG. 1962 OTS ODG