Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Talk about E-Types here
User avatar

politeperson
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#41 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by politeperson » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:58 pm

How could anyone bright enough to create a fortune of £40m then entrust a second hand car dealer with it?

With no contract? With little or no knowledge of the business in which he is investing?

Sounds like taking a big chance to me and you have to be prepared to take the risks with the rewards if that is the case.

I am with Chris one.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Heuer
Administrator
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: Nottinghamshire
Great Britain

#42 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Heuer » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:41 pm

In his defence he was dealing with one of the premier classic car dealers in the world with an impressive CV. What he was not expecting was to be scalped on every purchase and sale with very high restoration and maintenance costs rolled in. Further he/JD was selling cars but taking others in p/x at worryingly high estimates all of which was managed by JD without full disclosure. In addition he was paying JD a 10% agency fee. It all came crashing down when he wanted to liquidate his assets after 2 years as he had the opportunity to buy back his old company. If he had waited until now to do the selling he most certainly would have shown a profit.

A friend of mine bought a McLaren F1 race car eight years ago and it was recently sold for six times what he paid for it.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

Add your E-Type to our World Map: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Robbiee
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:07 pm
Location: Derbyshire

#43 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Robbiee » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:03 pm

Indeed gentlemen
Know your market
Robbie
Robbie 1962 3.8 Coupe OSG 1962 OTS ODG

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Series1 Stu
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:26 pm
Location: Shropshire
Great Britain

#44 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Series1 Stu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:09 am

Bloody hell! Tough crowd!

Surely nobody thinks this is an acceptable way of doing business. Why be critical of Mike Tuke for being conned?

I resent the people that see our hobby as a huge business or investment opportunity but criminal behaviour, no matter what the scale or who the victim is, is just that - criminal.

Tall poppy syndrome?

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

chrisfell
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:52 am
Location: Salisbury
St Lucia

#45 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by chrisfell » Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:33 pm

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I agree that criminality should be punished and if proved in this case, punished harshly, but naked greed should not be excused.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Series1 Stu
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:26 pm
Location: Shropshire
Great Britain

#46 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Series1 Stu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:53 pm

Unfortunately, being greedy isn't a crime. Neither is being naive.

In this case it appears that one man's (Company's) greed led to criminal behaviour. Let's see how this plays out.

There's a saying that you can't con an honest person. Not sure whether I entirely agree with that but there must be at least a germ of truth in it.

I'd love our hobby to be free of these shysters causing spiralling values and cashing in on it but that doesn't seem too likely any time soon.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


christopher storey
Posts: 4206
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:07 pm
Location: cheshire , england
Great Britain

#47 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by christopher storey » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:32 pm

I was fascinated to read the posts which suggested that the "investor" was at fault. This is, frankly, arrant nonsense . What took place was straightforward fraud on the part of the dealer who deliberately - and repeatedly - misrepresented the position to the client who had entrusted him ( for agreed fees let it be emphasised ) with the task of purchasing cars which he was told would be a sound investment. I may also say that some of the posts came close to - and may actually have crossed the line, of being defamatory of Mr Tuke

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Heuer
Administrator
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: Nottinghamshire
Great Britain

#48 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:05 pm

:yeahthat:

Christopher is a retired QC. Be careful what you post or some of you may be seeking his advice!

This was fraud and no one in their right mind would blame the victim. It could easily happen to any of us, maybe or maybe not on the same financial scale. I have to say I am dissapointed in some of the community's responses. :sad:
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

Add your E-Type to our World Map: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


Gfhug
Posts: 1612
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: Near Andover, Hampshire,in D.O. Blighty
Great Britain

#49 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Gfhug » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:44 pm

:yeahthat: David and Christopher, I very much agree with you.
JD might be regarded as a premier restorer and dealer by some but this shows them in a totally different light

Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

politeperson
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:26 pm
Location: Boston UK
Great Britain

#50 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by politeperson » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:51 pm

Well it would have been sensible if he had taken some independent advice before spending all that money.

You are right of course, fraud is fraud. Interesting to see what transpires.
James

L.J.K. Setright was right.
"You just cant beat a good E-type"

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Heuer
Administrator
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: Nottinghamshire
Great Britain

#51 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Heuer » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:02 pm

If anyone had asked me I would have said JD were a reputable company - who knew or guessed?
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

Add your E-Type to our World Map: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1810

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

Series1 Stu
Posts: 650
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:26 pm
Location: Shropshire
Great Britain

#52 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by Series1 Stu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:58 pm

Quite right, David.

Their glossy adverts in the major classic journals are very impressive. I have for some time though wondered why they never showed prices for their cars. Clearly, the price depended on who you are and what you know about the subject.

Unfortunately, there are such people in all walks of life. They aren't the first. Won't be the last.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'94 X300 XJR basket case

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

chrisfell
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:52 am
Location: Salisbury
St Lucia

#53 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by chrisfell » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:06 am

Last words (from me at least).

Never put all your eggs in one basket.

This is not just a proverb, it is a sensible rule which was built into every investment fund I've ever worked on. These rules limit, for example, the amount of a fund that could be invested in one asset, and the amount of a fund that could be invested in one class of assets. Spreading risks in this way may reduce the return to the investor by diluting a fund's stake in a specific asset that produces stellar returns, but it also reduces the loss when a specific asset turns out to be less a brilliant star and more a black hole. If any analyst had come to the investment committee with an investment that didn't conform to these simple rules, they'd have been sent away. (If they'd done it twice they'd have been asked to leave.)

There are other deeply personal reasons why I have little sympathy for business men who having worked hard building a successful enterprise, suddenly find themselves with obscene amounts of liquid wealth and do not think to seek advice on how to invest it sensibly. This may leave me a little more jaded than others, and certainly colours my opinion on the matter at hand.

As for the dentist come second hand car dealer, all of us have had 'dealings' with second hand car salesmen, and for me classic car dealers were no different. My experience leads me to hold that the popular reputation of these businessmen, far from being based on the fictitious Arthur Daley, is justly deserved in real life. However, I'll let the courts make the final judgement in this case.
Chris '67 S1 2+2

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


wagstefan
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:29 am
Location: Germany
Germany

#54 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by wagstefan » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Hi there,

In regard of sales price, I was astonished to read that the should have cost “only“ 400k GBP. This sounded to me
1.) Very attractive for such a car (albeit not having the money)
2.) Not sure where the profit would have been after purchasing the car and investing more than 5000 hours of work into the project. Not considering the parts needed

I have now had a source saying the asking price was significantly above 1.5 million GBP. This would be a totally different story.... and gosh must be the most expensive non-competion E-Type ever sold.....

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

User avatar

PeterCrespin
Posts: 3720
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:22 pm
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland.
Contact:
United States of America

#55 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by PeterCrespin » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:57 am

Heuer wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:02 pm
If anyone had asked me I would have said JD were a reputable company - who knew or guessed?
I knew - not guessed. Remember my thread in 2011 (?) when JD took my car in for an insurance estimate and refused to release it until they were paid £950, with storage charges threatened? The estimate allegedly included a full geometry cbeck for which they were unable to give results... The insurance assessor said he’d never seen anything like it during his career. Thankfully, the company paid.

Yet despite this personal experience, my views had mellowed, given their support of and investment in, all manner of classic events. Pity they were possibly using other people’s money...
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 79 S2 XJ12L; 97 XJ6L

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


christopher storey
Posts: 4206
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:07 pm
Location: cheshire , england
Great Britain

#56 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by christopher storey » Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:11 am

Well, Peter, it does you credit that your views had mellowed. Mine hadn't, and I refused to go to any event where they were one of the sponsors, hence my non-attendance at XK70 .

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


288gto
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:59 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Russia

#57 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by 288gto » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:58 am

When the Company you are dealing with and its assets are owned by a labyrinth of holding companies and the majority of its directors list their occupation as “fund manager” it makes you wonder how much of the hourly rate you are paying for your restoration is actually going into skilled labour.

I don’t mind sponsoring a few bacon butties, but probably can’t stretch to a showroom in Mayfair and the lavish lifestyles of the directors. :lol:

Some interesting reading that is in the public domain...

“About MR DEREK THOMAS HOOD

Mr Derek Thomas Hood holds 14 appointments at 14 active companies, has resigned from 4 companies and held 2 appointments at 2 dissolved companies. DEREK began their first appointment at the age of 32. Their longest current appointment spans 20 years, 4 months and 30 days at J D CLASSICS INTERNATIONAL LTD.

The combined cash at bank value for all businesses where DEREK holds a current appointment equals £0, a combined total current assets value of £449m with a total current liabilities of £176.7m and a total current net worth of £7.2m. Roles associated with Mr Derek Thomas Hood within the recorded businesses include: Director, Company Secretary”
Simon
1969 S2 OTS

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links


christopher storey
Posts: 4206
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:07 pm
Location: cheshire , england
Great Britain

#58 Re: Bruce McLaren #15 E-type JD Classics

Post by christopher storey » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:04 pm

I fear, Simon, that the Fund managers are likely to be the biggest losers of all . They are partners in a Swiss based investment company called Charme II, who bought about 2/3 of the equity from Hood in c.2016 . Presumably what they thought they were buying into was a lot of valuable stock , since looking at the accounts these are really the only assets of any significance . How much of it actually did belong to JD , and what it was really worth, are two questions which I have no doubt they would like answering, as will Lloyds Bank

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
Hide post links
Show post links

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic