Wheel: what Tightening torque

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Polse7317
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#1 Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Polse7317 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:41 pm

I have read this information somewhere......! but i don't find where :?: 200 lbf/ft ?
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Yves, happy XKE 63 fhc , w113 280sl owner
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! :scratchheadyellow: and now have found a fhc xk 140 :lol:

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#2 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by JJC » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:20 am

Don't have to torque....they tighten as you drive. One or two good wack's from the hammer, then take your baby for a ride.

John

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#3 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Polse7317 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:00 am

Ihave the answer in another thread : by David : 220 lb/ft :salute:
Yves, happy XKE 63 fhc , w113 280sl owner
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! :scratchheadyellow: and now have found a fhc xk 140 :lol:

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#4 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by mgcjag » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:24 am

Hi Yves...in the post your refering to i think David mentions no more than 220ftlb which he then said equated to 3 whacks with a mallet in his tests :bigrin: Steve
Steve
1969 S2 2+2 & Building a C type replica

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#5 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 am

Yes, 220lb/ft is what I measured and it does equate to three whacks with the copper or, preferably, lead mallet. Bear in mind I did the test under the following conditions:

1. I used original Jaguar spinners. With the crap Orson Engineering reproduction spinners all bets are off!
2. Wheel was off the floor and spinner tightened by hand ensuring the wheel was properly seated.
3. Three blows with a lead mallet whilst holding the wheel with one hand or with assistant in car standing on the brake pedal.
4. Lower car to ground and give spinner one more tap observing if the spinner moves at all. You only need to do this once to give you confidence you are whacking hard enough

I checked the actual torque by using the torque wrench and spinner removal tool to a) remove the spinner and found the force at which it clicked and b) tighten the spinner then using the mallet to see if the spinner moved. Finally I found some screw torque tables which indicated for a screw of 52mm and 8 TPI the recommended force was between 180 and 220 lb/ft.

I was however let down when using the three whacks method with repro spinners on my FHC as there was a horrible knocking sound coming from the front nearside wheel on right lock. Despite whacking the spinner several more times I still could not tighten it enough. Turned out the spinner was bottoming out on the hub because of poor machining. Bought a set of NOS Jaguar spinners on eBay which solved the problem.

I live in hope that Julian will go ahead and and commission Albion Brockhouse, the original manufacturer, to make a run of original spec spinners. They will cost double that of the Orson/MWS/SC Parts paperweights but will be worth every penny.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#6 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Polse7317 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:07 pm

I have two original spinner and two "sngb" one....... :fingerscrossed: so :thankyouyellow: i am confident with 220 lb/ft torque
Yves, happy XKE 63 fhc , w113 280sl owner
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! :scratchheadyellow: and now have found a fhc xk 140 :lol:

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#7 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:51 pm

The SNGB ones will be Orson Engineering - keep an eye out on eBay for two Jaguar originals!
Original:
Image

SNGB/Orson etc repro's:
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David Jones
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#8 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Polse7317 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:55 pm

Not great difference between those two .....! The repro one seem to have sharp "ears""
Yves, happy XKE 63 fhc , w113 280sl owner
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! :scratchheadyellow: and now have found a fhc xk 140 :lol:

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#9 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:57 am

Original Jaguar:

Height - 38mm (1.5")
Diameter - 101.6mm (4")
Outer wall thickness - 6.5mm (1/4")
Inner wall thickness - 5.4mm (7/32")
Depth from top of wall to bottom of casting - 31.6mm (1 1/4")
Weight - 885gms (31oz)

The reproduction hub caps are a different size, shape and weight:
Height - 35mm (1 3/8")
Diameter - 106.3mm (4 3/16")
Outer wall thickness - 8.6mm (11/32")
Inner wall thickness - 5.1mm (13/64")
Depth from top of wall to bottom of casting - 27.45mm (1 5/64")
Weight - 1107gms (39oz)

There are many other differences:

1. The originals have 1467 RH AB or 1466 LH AB cast into the base whilst the reproductions have 'Made in England' and, on one set, the number '8059'. AB stands for Albion Brockhouse.
2. Originals have grooved inner faces, the repro's are smooth
3. The channel between the inner and outer walls is U shaped on the originals, square shape on the repro's (could be the reason the latter can be problematic to remove)
4. The Jaguar logo on the repro's is smaller, a different shape and has enlarged 'A' and smaller 'G' and 'U'
5. The shoulder between the front face and ear section is much deeper and better defined on the originals giving a more svelte and lighter look
6. The length of the 'Undo' arrow is longer on the original
7. The position of the word 'Undo' is different on the original
8. The lettering for Left/Right side is in a different position on the original
9. The ears are fatter in section on the repro
10. The repro's are half a pound heavier per wheel which does nothing to help un-sprung weight.

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Image
David Jones
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#10 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by johnetype » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:25 am

Heuer wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:44 am
Yes, 220lb/ft is what I measured and it does equate to three whacks with the copper or, preferably, lead mallet. Bear in mind I did the test under the following conditions:

1. I used original Jaguar spinners. With the crap Orson Engineering reproduction spinners all bets are off!
2. Wheel was off the floor and spinner tightened by hand ensuring the wheel was properly seated.
3. Three blows with a lead mallet whilst holding the wheel with one hand or with assistant in car standing on the brake pedal.
4. Lower car to ground and give spinner one more tap observing if the spinner moves at all. You only need to do this once to give you confidence you are whacking hard enough
With the wheel off the ground I shudder to think of the reaction force to the hammer blows going through the shock absorber on its end stop. I always lower my car to the ground enough to slightly compress the shock absorber before hammering the spinner. Am I right to be concerned?
John

1969 Series 2 FHC

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#11 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Herzeg » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:14 am

David

I have a repro set for my S2 federal spinners, bought at Stoneleigh in my early innocent days of ownership. I've fitted two so far without trouble but from this thread it sounds like I should use the originals. Given that they are marked from constant use, is it feasible to re-chrome them successfully? Has anyone done this?

John
1969 S2 OTS

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#12 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:14 am

johnetype wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:25 am

With the wheel off the ground I shudder to think of the reaction force to the hammer blows going through the shock absorber on its end stop. I always lower my car to the ground enough to slightly compress the shock absorber before hammering the spinner. Am I right to be concerned?
No, the mass of the spinner/wheel/tyre/hub/caliper/disc easily absorbs the hammer blows Tightening the spinner with the tyre on the ground means the wheel may not be seated correctly on the hub. Besides the energy and forces the front suspension experiences on the road is considerably greater than you could ever introduce with your hammer.

Removing the spinner whilst the tyre is on the ground is OK although you may need more force to get it loose if there is wear to the splines due to the vertical force being applied.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#13 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:18 am

Herzeg wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:14 am
David

I have a repro set for my S2 federal spinners, bought at Stoneleigh in my early innocent days of ownership. I've fitted two so far without trouble but from this thread it sounds like I should use the originals. Given that they are marked from constant use, is it feasible to re-chrome them successfully? Has anyone done this?

John
Yes. They need to be de-chromed, dressed, re-engraved (if heavy polishing was required) and re-chromed. Angus does this on all the cars he restores as he now refuses to use repro spinners.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#14 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Polse7317 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:09 pm

Well..... thank's David i have learned much about spinner that i thought .... :salute:
I'll have a look on my old one with chrome damages....
Yves, happy XKE 63 fhc , w113 280sl owner
Looking for a OTS 4.2 serie 1....! :scratchheadyellow: and now have found a fhc xk 140 :lol:

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#15 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by JJC » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Interesting answers on knock-off spinners. Why would you jack the wheel off the ground before attempting to knock spinner loose ?? Re-chrome because of use ? Thats the point....of course they will get hammered from time to time...thus the name "knock-offs" ! Why re-chrome, only to get hit again ?? Torque the spinners ?? Why?? The design, evolved from the early days of racing, was to keep the process as simple as possible.....replace wheel / tire with fresh racing rubber, quick whack and send the car on its way...spending as little time in the pits as possible. Actually, on average, by the time the race car reached the end of the pits, it was as tight as need be, and only got a bit tighter as the car drove off . Why would you torque the wheel....simply not part of the original grand design !! Ever hear of a spinner falling off while driving ?? NOPE !! LOL

Happy motoring !

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#16 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Mark Gordon » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:06 pm

Ever hear of a spinner falling off while driving ?? NOPE !! LOL
YEP!! Someone once posted a tale of woe, I think that it was on J-L, of a knock off working loose while driving. Turns out that during a complete rebuild of the car, he had installed the hubs on the wrong side. But, no, if the car is assembled with the hubs where they belong, the knock offs only tighten while driving.
Mark

67 OTS 1E14988, 2002 VDP

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#17 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by JJC » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:10 pm

Right on Mark !! Only going to tighten up. Love your post , although I think you would agree, its more an example of sheer stupidity, then normal driving and worrying about how tight to put on a hub that tightens itself ! Have a good one >

John

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#18 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:29 pm

The question was asked about torque and answered from an engineering point of view - the OP was using a spinner removal tool and torque wrench (see photo). From a practical point of view 'three whacks' with a lead hammer is sufficient to achieve that torque. You only need to have the wheel off the ground to tighten, not to loosen. For tightening, having the wheel off the ground allows it to seat easily and accommodate any wear in the splines or contact points. Just good practice - see F1 pit changes.

As regards re-chroming providing you use a lead rather than a copper mallet the spinners will not be damaged. Many of us use a spinner removal tool which is also good for ensuring they can be removed/fitted without damage. Again good sensible practice.

As regards the spinner tightening with forward movement that is notionally possible however experience shows the repro spinners are so badly machined they can contact the wheel hub without being fully tightened and no amount of hammering will tighten them. Those of us with original Jaguar spinners in good condition want to keep them that way as, at the moment at least, they are NLA and I would prefer to buy a shabby set rather than trust my luck to the reproduction items.

My personal experience of a loose spinner was on my Lotus Elan. A mechanic had failed to tighten it sufficiently and the wheel started knocking on the motorway at 80mph. It did not tighten itself! For that I needed a hammer (and a change of underwear). Oh, and said ace mechanic had forgotten to put the Thor hammer back in the boot.

Feel free to try loosening a spinner and taking your car for a high speed run :shock:

The self tightening spinner story is an urban myth and a dangerous one at that.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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#19 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by JJC » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:21 pm

Wrong....the forward motion of the wheel provides a tightening motion that is both positive and automatic. Thus the beauty of this simple and effective design. To indicate to forum readers that a car with center mounted wheels, and automatic locking hubs, such as wire wheels fitted to any Jaguar, is anything but fact is to provide a mis-guided and incorrect service to any new owner seeking answers to a subject of which they are only at the early stages of gathering knowledge regarding their new acquisition.

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#20 Re: Wheel: what Tightening torque

Post by Heuer » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:37 pm

No, the forward motion of the wheel prevents them from becoming loose - they are notionally "automatic locking" hubs in that they they lock where you leave them, not get tighter with use. You set how tight you want them and they stay that way, hence my experience with the Lotus.

As Donald Bastow (ex-Rolls-Royce, ex-Bentley, author etc) looking at the Rudge Whitworth design expressed it when asked if they were self tightening - "perhaps more importantly, not self-loosening". So if one does become loose it will not fall off although how it would come loose in the first place given they are not supposed to I am not sure. The 'miracle' of a self tightening nut was a product of the R-W advertising back in the day (although even they were careful to say "It is then impossible for the nut to work loose"), is quoted directly in modern texts without qualification or support and so the legend lives on.
Image

But despite my own experience I am prepared to be educated if you can come up with a plausible mechanical or scientific explanation of how two masses rotating in the same direction can tighten beyond 220lb/ft rather than remain static with relation to each other. :shrug:
JJC wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:21 pm
To indicate to forum readers that a car with center mounted wheels, and automatic locking hubs, such as wire wheels fitted to any Jaguar, is anything but fact is to provide a mis-guided and incorrect service to any new owner seeking answers to a subject of which they are only at the early stages of gathering knowledge regarding their new acquisition.
:scratchheadyellow:
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB

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