Please talk me in, or talk me out!

jellypig · Post by **jellypig** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:04 pm

Hi,

Out of the blue I've been offered a S2 FHC , one owner, manual, factory aircon, LHD "matching numbers" fresh off the boat.
I have had a quick look round, and not being an expert, all the places I'd expect to find rust are largely free of. (there is a bit of filler and stuff round the rear arches) but cant see anything anywhere else.

The paint is flat and dead.
It runs and drives, but has a huge petrol leak on the front carb, (stuck float?) so I didn't run it for long.
There are a couple of carpark dings in tbe body (sides) but front and rear are fine.
Chromework is old, maybe pitted, but intact. Wires wheels are just filthy, but tyres look newish Michellin.

The interior is dirty, but not ripped, worn or torn - give me a day and some elbow grease....
I think it looks fairly solid with everything there.

But, as I said, I wasnt looking! Am happy with my garage, and so to buy this, my play car would have to go into store whilst I recommissioned the E-type and then I'd have to choose which to keep.

I confess the idea of being involved saving this Etype appeals.So, and I know this is an almost impossible set of questions to answer, but

a) What would you do? (as in process - completely stripped to the tub or back to metal paint on a rolling chassis refurbing the engine bay in situ? )

b) Ballpark ?'s to take it to a "nice running driving" car? (As in the sort of car you'd be proud of, a nice reliable-ish drive but with a few chores for dedicated to tackle if they wanted to) And to get there I think it needs, paint, wheels, re-chrome, all the glass out for the paint so new rubbers, a proper service and recommission, a really nice detail on the engine , suspension bushes , discs, lines, pads, fluids, lets say clutch too, but I'd hope to only be something notional on the interior. I'd leave it as LHD, but if the aircon wasnt working then consider remove rather than repair it. But ball park figure if thats even possible? (obviously wont hold anyone too it)

I have loads of time on my hands and reasonable collection of tools & tinkering skills. I'd expect to do a lot myself.

Thanks!

David Oslo · Post by **David Oslo** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:45 pm

I'm assuming you're not content to just fix the carbs, clean the interior and wheels and run it as-found. It's just a bit too shabby for your liking I'm presuming (point being, this is an option, run it for a year whilst you figure out the game plan).

Aside from that, without even having seen the car, or mileage, or shake-down drive I would say to plan for an engine out & send for overhauling (or do it yourself, quite straight forwards) - ballpark ?1500 for parts and services DIY or ?3 grand for a one-stop-shop, and whilst engine is out send car to a professional bodyshop for dis-assembly of glass, chrome, trim, back to bare metal, proper prepp (be prepared for bondo surprises), quality repaint and re-assembly - ballpark ?14 grand one-stop-shop (I had a quote for this last year) or do it partial DIY, chunk up the work and manage the project yourself for less; chroming will set you back around ?2-3 grand (again I had quotes on this, but am just polishing and clear coating to save money).

All this is circa approx ballpark.

Then there is the interior, does it shine up, or do you based on the repaint want to do a retrim....

As you can see it all starts to get expensive quickly. You might want to benchmark against an entirely finished and sorted S2, in terms of cost and elapsed time.

Gfhug · Post by **Gfhug** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:45 pm

On top of David's good advice is to chat to Angus at http://www.mossjaguar.com/index.html

Plus a good read of the Knowledge Base in the forum, and read of some of the books shown there, perhaps not easy if you're needing to make up your mind quickly.

Will you want to convert it to RHD? Also see some of the comments on the converting of the differential from the US 3.54 to UK/Europe 3.07.

Good luck

Geoff

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:47 pm

Personal preferences do of course come into play, but there are a number of factors which you need to consider before taking the plunge, associated with the specification of the car and not its condition.

1. factory aircon makes an awful mess of the engine bay and indeed the dash, and is not much of an asset in the UK ( where I assume you are )

2. A Us S2 will be on Strombergs and also will have a 3.54 axle . To put these to European spec is a minimumof ? 3,000 and in reality may well be a good bit more than this

3.Although there is no real difficulty in converting to rhd, you are still talking something of the order of ? 1000 minimum even doing the work yourself

The other factor which is very important to consider is, how confident are you that it is not rotten. The problem with Es is that, unlike a Jaguar mark 2 where the rot is usually clearly visible, on an E it can look good on the outside but the inner hollow spaces, particularly the B posts and the bulkhead , may be rotten. The rear wing filler does not bode well in this respect. A good crawl under it, all carpets and harduras out , plenty of poking round inner sills etc , careful examination of the bonnet frames for cracks, bends or other defects ( no longer cheap to replace ) , and very careful examination of the junction between bonnet centre section and the front wings, and also the inner spaces of the front lower valance , is a very minimum, and best of all have someone familiar with Es to look at it with you

JagWaugh · Post by **JagWaugh** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:40 pm

Jellypig,

It is pretty simple. Does the Jag whisper "Take me" when you think of it? Get it to run and if you can get through an MOT drive it for a full season and try to evaluate how much invasive surgery it needs, then have at it.

Andrew

jellypig · Post by **jellypig** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:19 pm

Thanks Chaps.

All good food for thought.
Yes am in the UK (East Mids) And so aircon is not a must.

RHD conversion - maybe... but am not that bothered. It was a car originally sold in the US, I've no big problem in it remaining US spec (apart from which bits I'd need to swap to make it "legal")

Driving around for a bit ? Yes, that would be a sensible plan, except were not really at the time of year for that (soon anyway) and from the moment I buy this Jaguar I'll have to stash my other car many miles from home and frankly I'll miss it. If I buy this one day, bits are coming off the next.

Differential - wont the bigger number mean better accelerating?
Carbs - why would I swap?
Lumping these two together because they are US specific, but gut feel I'd be happy to leave both of these "as is" as both would fall into the category of "nice winter project" for the following years and only touch them if they are broken. I cant imagine having the non EU diff/carbs would make it not work, just maybe not work as well as it could, and I can put the ?3k towards better bits this year, and save for yr2.

Thank you also for pointing me in the direction of Moss Jaguar I'll give them a call.

As for the rust.. bonnet fit was superb, the "rope" edges at the bottom of the bonnet were immaculate, and I confess I didnt spot the filler in the lower rear arches , the man with me, a bodywork restorer did, and he mentioned nothing else nor did I see anything else from above, within or crawling underneath. That being said, I take your point there could be much much more rust underneath and inside.

And finally does it whisper "Take me" - erm... sorry it sort of doesnt. The interest at the moment (though it could win me over) is in saving it - the voyage of discovery sorting it out and to see if I swoon. It'll be an interesting process to see what happens at the end. Fetch my other car from store and sell this, or keep this and sell the other.

So... in terms of budget how does this sound:
Body & Paint ?10k. Me doing as much stripping as possible.
Wheels ?300 powder coated (new chrome if savings made elsewhere)
Tyres ?1000 - existing Michellins look OK, but I didnt capture the DOT codes.
Re-Chrome ?1500-2000
Engine Service Bits ?500
Suspension Bits ?1000
Brakes Bits ?700
Consumables/Engine Detailing Bits/Tools to Buy*/Garage Ancillaries ?3000
Transport ?500.
Interior ?1000 - good fettle first (?50) then see what I need.

So thats just over ?20k.
How does that sound?
Plenty? Not enough?

Bearing in mind I'd only want a "nice" not exceptional car, but the things that are "done" are done properly.

(*I'd like to buy a small blaster and recycle parts rather than buy new, brackets etc)

Gfhug · Post by **Gfhug** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:09 pm

What is your present play car?
Would you rather play with that or spend lots of time getting another play car up and running or should we say running to your satisfaction?
Yes, the US 3.54 diff does give better acceleration for the traffic light sprint. Do you really wish to indulge in that often?
The two Strombergs reduce power so you won't win the traffic light sprint anyway.

We are all fans of the E Type, so prejudiced in favour of them. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the handling is old-fashioned if that is what you enjoy.

rolando38 · Post by **rolando38** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:17 pm

well there's an important figure you forgot to mention, the price of the car itself ...
because adding 20k on top of a 15k car can make sense, but adding 20k to a 30k (or more ) car makes much less sense...

jellypig · Post by **jellypig** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:09 am

Again thanks everyone for their useful comments.

Gfhug wrote:What is your present play car?
Would you rather play with that or spend lots of time getting another play car up and running or should we say running to your satisfaction?

A Ferrari 348. And, although not "finished" I've reached diminishing returns and I am very very attached to it. But as I said at the top, I wasn't looking, this E-Type has been offered to me out of the blue, and it interests me. Once completed though, one would have to go.
But yes, I think I would very much enjoy fettling that car. It needs it.

And then, hahahaha, what a decision, which to keep - the British Icon that Enzo Ferrari said was the most beautiful car ever made , or the Ferrari that his replacement ,Luca de Montezemelo allegedly said was the "worst Ferrari ever" (it isnt , and recent price rises indicate its increasingly being discovered as the cracking little car it is)

Gfhug wrote:Yes, the US 3.54 diff does give better acceleration for the traffic light sprint. Do you really wish to indulge in that often?
The two Strombergs reduce power so you won't win the traffic light sprint anyway.

No, not traffic lights but I do like the occasional "rattle" along country lanes. Am not rejecting diff swaps out of hand, I'd love to be guided, but gut feel , a diff swap is a nice compartmentalized sub-project that can be parked if I am constrained by budgets. Ditto carbs, I dont imagine it'd be a fortune to sort the existing SU's , get the car running as it left the factory, appreciate that - and then consider an upgrade later.

Gfhug wrote:We are all fans of the E Type, so prejudiced in favour of them. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the handling is old-fashioned if that is what you enjoy.

Yes, I can appreciate that.
I've been an admirer of the E-Types for years, back in the 80's I used to go support a local Jaguar racing team in various JDC championships and would tour around the country to race meetings, and also often shows.
Only recently did I get a ride in an E-Type for the first time and I liked it. Had I not I would have rejected this offer out of hand.

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:15 am

As far as the diff is concerned, the problem is that it makes the intermediate gears ridiculously low, particularly with the later KE wide ratio box which this car will have. Thus 2nd gear, which on a 3.07 axle with the earlier EJ 4 synchro box is a wonderful overtaking gear which will sweep you to 70 mph comfortably, on a 3.54 with the wide ratio box will barely get you to ( true ) 50 mph . In any event, the XK engine is the direct antithesis of your 348 - it is all about torque rather than high revs and will pull strongly in any gear at any rpm

As far as your budget is concerned, your body/paint budget is rather low - paint alone ( without painting) now costs the thick end of ?2K so your 10K would probably be absorbed totally by the painting with no allowance for metalwork - but your ?3K for consumables etc is very generous indeed . Provided structural work is not needed - in particular a new bonnet or frames - your overall estimate is probably not too far away from reality

jellypig · Post by **jellypig** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:27 pm

Thanks Christopher.

I understand more about the diff swap now and will mentally move it up my priority list.
I know what you mean about the engine and torque - I went for my first ever E-type ride a few weeks ago, and internally I was encouraging the driver to "give it the beans" because as you say, on my V8 the power is at the top but "pull strongly in any gear at any rpm" is probably much more suited to today's busy roads.

And thanks for your comment on budget.

This thread has given me much to think about, and pointed me at much more to read and learn. Thank you all for your help!

Quattrofrank · Post by **Quattrofrank** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:03 pm

jellypig wrote:Again thanks everyone for their useful comments.

Gfhug wrote:What is your present play car?
Would you rather play with that or spend lots of time getting another play car up and running or should we say running to your satisfaction?
A Ferrari 348. And, although not "finished" I've reached diminishing returns and I am very very attached to it. But as I said at the top, I wasn't looking, this E-Type has been offered to me out of the blue, and it interests me. Once completed though, one would have to go.
But yes, I think I would very much enjoy fettling that car. It needs it.

And then, hahahaha, what a decision, which to keep - the British Icon that Enzo Ferrari said was the most beautiful car ever made , or the Ferrari that his replacement ,Luca de Montezemelo allegedly said was the "worst Ferrari ever" (it isnt , and recent price rises indicate its increasingly being discovered as the cracking little car it is)

Gfhug wrote:Yes, the US 3.54 diff does give better acceleration for the traffic light sprint. Do you really wish to indulge in that often?
The two Strombergs reduce power so you won't win the traffic light sprint anyway.
No, not traffic lights but I do like the occasional "rattle" along country lanes. Am not rejecting diff swaps out of hand, I'd love to be guided, but gut feel , a diff swap is a nice compartmentalized sub-project that can be parked if I am constrained by budgets. Ditto carbs, I dont imagine it'd be a fortune to sort the existing SU's , get the car running as it left the factory, appreciate that - and then consider an upgrade later.

Gfhug wrote:We are all fans of the E Type, so prejudiced in favour of them. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the handling is old-fashioned if that is what you enjoy.
Yes, I can appreciate that.
I've been an admirer of the E-Types for years, back in the 80's I used to go support a local Jaguar racing team in various JDC championships and would tour around the country to race meetings, and also often shows.
Only recently did I get a ride in an E-Type for the first time and I liked it. Had I not I would have rejected this offer out of hand.

I would recomend a 5speed gearbox and keep the current diff ratio. This gives more "punch" in every gear. As a bonus you will get a new gearbox with faster and more presise gearchanges (I have not yet bought a 5 speed but this is what the common opinion is)

David Oslo · Post by **David Oslo** » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:09 pm

Is there any time constraints on the car you've been offered. Don't want to decided "you're in" only to be told that it was sold an hour ago.....

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:01 am

-as for the petrol leak from the carbs....Yes, a stuck float float is possible. Also, you might find that the float has leaked petrol IN, and the float won't float. I am told this is a caused by newer petrol eroding the solder. Easy to check, and you can get replacement plastic floats easily off the internet.
This is a quick DIY fix, and at least it will get you mobile safely, so you can get it round to various workshops for those all important quotes

mystery type · Post by **mystery type** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:30 pm

If you buy it, you will spend money on it to make it road worthy.
when its finished you will have to sell it because you want your 348 back.
when you sell it, people will point out the lack of SUs, left hand drive, aircon, diff etc. unless you change all these.

So don't buy it unless you intend to keep it, then you can do the job right.
just my opinion.

Or get a bigger garage.

jellypig · Post by **jellypig** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:34 pm

David Oslo wrote:Is there any time constraints on the car you've been offered. Don't want to decided "you're in" only to be told that it was sold an hour ago.....

I've spoken to the vendor and were in no rush.

As for the other comments - bigger garage is being considered! :)

jellypig · Post by **jellypig** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:56 pm

Well, I bought it. I've got it home and its in the garage.

Please excuse lots of silly daft inexperienced questions that are bound to follow.. :D

David Oslo · Post by **David Oslo** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:16 pm

Woohoo :D :D

Pictures - we're eagerly waiting for pictures :D

Mark Gordon · Post by **Mark Gordon** » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:31 pm

Congratulations and don't be shy with questions. At one time, we all had questions that as we gained experience had obvious answers. The learning is a large part of the fun of dealing with these old classics.

mark10337 · Post by **mark10337** » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:45 am

Hooray

Welcome along! Look forward to helping out with some of the questions

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

The 'E' Type Forum

Please talk me in, or talk me out!

#1 Please talk me in, or talk me out!

#2

#3

#4

#5 Re: Please talk me in, or talk me out!

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10

#11

#12

#13

#14

#15

#16

#17

#18

#19

#20