Information on my Etype's history

[Robbiee]

Hi All
I have just found and purchased a RHD S1 OTS located in Holland.
This car was built in 1962 either in March or May
It's Engine and gearbox match each other and were fitted to a March 1962 car in opalescent Dark green.
At some time it was painted red and the numberplate in 1979 was 5079 HJ
In 1979 it had accident damage in Holland and was purchased by a young mechanic (who has been a classic alpha Romeo restorer for 35 years)
He restored the car in Silver(did nothing to the engine and gearbox which were fine)
I have many photos of the restoration!
It has sat unused in a Dutch private garage(his brother in laws) for 33 years
The problem is it had its chassis and body number removed and the Dutch customs insisted it be given a Dutch number and chassis number

Has anyone ever heard of this car / numberplate as I want to trace previous owners for information about numbers(jag heritage are understandibly cagey)?

I feel it's really important to trace which car this is as it is another important bit of Etype history

Any advice would be appreciated

PS I intend to fully restore the car to original spec
Robbie

[Nickleback]

Do you have the engine & gearbox numbers, if they are original to the car then you may be able to trace them here:
http://www.xkedata.com/

[Mark Gordon]

Why were the chassis and body number removed? With all of the recent thefts of E Types, that would be a big red flag to me.

[Robbiee]

Thanks for the replies
The car has been in a garage in Holland for 30+ years so it hasn't been stolen recently!
The restorer was very early in his career so I don't think he had much idea of the significance of the ID plate the Dutch customs were insistant that he replaced the chassis number with the Dutch one.
I'm intrigued to find out why it landed up in Holland in 1979
I'm going to try the V888 enquiry form asking for previous owners log book etc etc...maybe they will know if it was stolen or exported legally. The fact that Dutch customs inspected it probably means it went to Holland legally.
Does anyone know if records exist from Henlys of London to whom the car was delivered in 1962?

[mgcjag]

Hi Robbie.....how about the body number that was originaly stamped on top of the picture frame on the right side of the car just above the shock absorber.....is it still there, could have a few coats of paint over it but only missing if ground off or the frame replaced...have a close look

[Robbiee]

Thanks Steve
I think you mean the chassis/car number ...it's hard to make it out.
I can't locate the body number which is either on the bulkhead, sometimes behind the rear numberplate and sometimes inside the lower boot near the petrol tank.
I'm going to check for crayoned numbers under the dash which, from the 1970s resto photos, doesn't seem to have been removed. This might also confirm the original body colour too.
Robbie

[mgcjag]

Try photoing the number and then viewing on a screan.....can possibly be seen clearer

[Robbiee]

I'll try that thanks

[38E]

I'd get in touch with the Jaguar Heritage Trust who have all the records and may help you (for a fee). They will have the chassis number of the car that used that engine etc. They may also have recorded the first registration number. If you don't get any luck with the UK JHT, try the US branch where they still have a real archivist.

You should really be sure to have the actual chassis number if you intend to restore the car because there were major bodywork changes to the Coupes in early 1962 and a lot of parts for later cars won't fit. I restored an early one.

BTW, the body number should be on a plate under the trim on the left side rear wheel arch just behind the fuel filler access panel and also on the right rear bonnet gusset. Trouble is, body numbers on early RHD coupes were often transposed at the factory so they are not completely reliable to identify a car.

[Robbiee]

Thanks Clive
The engine and gearbox match and are from a March 1962 OTS RHD in opalescent dark green

The numberplate was originally from a May 1962 OTS RHD in gunmetal

Both cars were distributed by Henlys of London

I'm wondering if the new owner fancied the unusual number and it was swapped

I'll try the DVLA who offer an archive service

BW
Robbie

[38E]

Ah, I didn't catch that it was an OTS...I was going by your signature." '62 3.8 Coupe".

So maybe you can find a body number and trace that. Have you checked the bonnet gusset for the number? The right hand bolted bracket just in front of the bulkhead has the body number stamped on it and if you have that, JHT should do a search based on it.

The DVLA qave me a list of the previous owners of my car and the different registration numbers too but that was a long time ago. If you can't get anywhere with the UK JHT, try writing to Mike Cook at the US JHT branch. He might be able to help you and they have exactly the same record base.

[Robbiee]

Thanks again Clive
I'll try that route
I presume you're Canadian from your Ontario "flag"?!
Great to get such a helpful reply from across the pond.
Sorry to confuse you ...yes I have a 3.8 '62 coupe but as my friend says "what's better than one Etype on the drive?"
BW
Robbie

[Heuer]

I am not sure I believe the story about the Dutch authorities insisting on giving this car a Dutch identity. VIN numbers are solely the remit of the manufacturer and this information is recorded against the number issued by the licencing authority. All part of the checks and balances in place to prevent fraud. Even if they did so, and I think it is highly unlikely, why would the restorer go to the trouble to remove all traces of the original numbers which would be required when ordering parts?

I also wonder how this guy ended up buying the car. A 21 year old E-Type touring Europe would have had to be in good condition and back then would have had a value of about £10k. It would have needed fully comprehensive insurance (the old green card for Europe) and after an accident would have been repatriated back to the UK for assessment. Highly unlikely it would be sold locally I would have thought.

My gut feeling is this car has a shady history and I can understand JHT's reluctance to cooperate. If you do get the VIN it will lead to the registration number which will flick a switch at the DVLA if it comes up as stolen or written off. It could then be returned to the original owner or insurance company.

Hope it is not the case but you need to do a lot of checking and seek legal advice if things do not come up smelling of roses. As the original colour was ODG it will narrow the search down considerably as very few were painted that colour.

[chrisfell]

It seems I'm not the only one to think 'ringer' when this thread first started. Besides the crayon marks which we know about, Jaguar workers used marks in other places. Pencilled engine numbers inside the skirts of pistons for example. The waters are muddied, however, by the inevitable truth that our cars are old, have had many owners, have been driven a lot and have been subject to maintenance and repair that will have altered much of its original condition.

I am fortunate in knowing the identity of all the owners of my car. One was a businessman, one a teacher in a minor public school. I, and the car, have travelled to meet with one former owner, who cared for the car for 16 hears, so I have a greater faith in my car's history than some. But I have much less than others where the car has remained in one family for two generations, or where the car moves between owners, including through complex restorations with a comprehensive documented history and log.

If the car that is the subject of this thread does turn out to include in its history a non-legal change of possession the current owner will not have legal ownership of the car. His only claim will be against the seller. I hope his car is genuine. If it isnt it will be a lesson for us all to very careful when buying an E-Type. Caveat Emptor, and all that.

[Robbiee]

Thank you for your wise comments
I think I need to contact DVLA to get information on whether the car was written off or stolen at any point.
Robbie

[Heuer]

Robbie

Can you please clarify some points for us as we seem to be missing important links in the story line:

1. How do you know the engine and gearbox are from a March 1962 OTS RHD in Opalescent Dark Green?
2. How do you know the number plate was originally from a May 1962 OTS RHD in Gunmetal?
3. What is that number plate? 5079 HJ?
4. How do you know both cars were distributed by Henlys of London?
5. How do you know it was repainted red and the number plate in 1979 was 5079 HJ?
6. What is the Dutch registration number and VIN?
7. What are the engine/gearbox numbers?

It seems you have bought car made up of parts from two. Nothing wrong in that provided it was done legitimately but which car are you trying to trace, the ODG or Gunmetal one?


Some photo's would be useful if only to reassure other members they are not wasting their time chasing a phantom.

[PeterCrespin]

You have a car with no body or car number, therefore you have no car, just an engine and gearbox with undocumented spare parts. There is no point contacting DVLA (I hope) if you have no VIN for them to trace. I sincerely hope Jaguar Heritage do not disclose the serial numbers.

I have a 1965 matching engine and gearbox too, and many other un-numbered E-type parts just like you, but that does not mean I own a legal entity called a 1965 E-type. So it would be illegal for me to try and create one around my known engine and gearbox.

If you have no number visible on the picture frame then you have a collection of spare parts and sorry to say I hope it stays that way. There are at least two people with hopefully unregisterable cars stolen from me and until/unless you find the numbers on your car and supply them to Jaguar Heritage (not the other way around!) you could have my car.

I can't believe ANY mechanic thought the serial numbers didn't matter and I don't believe any customs system would accept an un-numbered car as legitimate. I'' happy to be proved wrong on all points, of course, but the onus is on you to prove legitimacy beyond doubt and the onus is on all legitimate owners to support one another, in part by being picky and freezing out anonymized cars.

[Robbiee]

Hi David
Thanks for taking the time to think about this
In answer:
1. I gave Mary at JHT the engine and gearbox numbers and she informed me that they were from a March '62 RHD OTS in opalescent dark green.
2. The numberplate from the photos taken in Holland in 1979 was British and 5079 HJ, when I told Mary she informed me that it was originally on a gunmetal OTS May '62 car RHD with red interior. This was recorded in the Jaguar factory records.
3. The numberplate is visible on photos of the car from 1979 in Holland. The restorer confirms it came to him with this number.
4. Mary informed me that both cars went to Henlys of London
5. Photos taken in Holland in '79 show the body to be red with black interior. There is accident damage to the left side and the bonnet is missing. The bulkhead is dark possibly green.
The number plate is clearly visible.
6. Dutch reg is HH-49-DX and the vin is u15367t with a manufacture date of 1962.
There are many photos of the car from before during and after restoration as well as an extensive 1983 Dutch motor magazine article about its restoration which a friend has read and translated. This is an interview with photos with the Dutch guy who restored it. He's a reputable classic alpha Romeo restorer from Holland who I have spoken to. He registered the car with the Dutch customs who said it was not stolen.
7. Engine number is R 4696-9 and gearbox EB 3019 JS.

I am away til tomorrow but I have photos at home of the before during and after of the 1970s resto. I'd be happy to share.
The Dutch restorer is going to chase out any further photos if he can find them
BW
Robbie

[Robbiee]

To Peter
Thanks for your comments
I am aware of all this which is why I am trying to get advice and help from this forum.
I am not interested in making up a car that doesn't exist
I am sure that I will be able to get this sorted with some help
Best wishes
Robbie

[cactusman]

I hope the car turns out to be genuine but i do agree with the general concensus that cars of dubious origin should not be resurrected.....or should return to their righful owner if stolen. You seem to have parts and "history" from two separate cars which, as others have said, sounds alarm bells.

As others have also said I can think of no good reason to remove or obscure the factory issued VIN number of a car. Whether restored recently or 40 years back, all car repairers know the significance of a VIN. There is no legitimate reason to obscure it but there are plenty of illegitimate reasons to obscure it. While you may have many a picture of the restoration in the 1980's are you absolutely sure that the car you now have is the same one that featured in the magasine article and languished in storage for years until emerging once again? Dutch customs say it was not stolen in Holland. How could they be certain with no VIN? How could they check with e.g. the DVLA with no VIN?

As others have said, I hope you can establish its identity and I hope that once done it turns out to be genuine and legitimate. Equally though I would not be at all surprised if it turns out to have had a murky past and not be the car you think it is....or indeed your car at all.