Basic questions when buying an E Type. Question 1

[kennyh]

Hiya chaps, although well versed in most classics I'll put my hands up and admit whole heartedly I'm struggling when it comes to E Types, in all fairness and in my defence which new prospective buyer wouldn't? Especially when you see prices raging from 20k through to 300k plus.

Anyhow I'm not that daft, I now know my way around the various models after months of trawling literature and my generic instinct for the condition of a car through experience with classics should help me to a point.

I'm at the point now where I will probably go and view a car when a vehicle crops up that looks to fit the bill.

There was no point going to see any when I've not got a clue what's what, no use to me or the seller.

However, there is a local car to me, owned by a chap I've known for years and have in fact done business with him in the past and we have mutual respect and he knows I'm a serious person when it comes to buying cars.....so who knows what will happen.

Early days and no firm prices discussed but I do like the car.

I can see obvious negatives with the car but also many plus's, it'll all depend on price as always so I'll leep you posted.

So my first inane question please. Is a 3.8 car complete with its original Moss box a good or a bad thing?
I'm seeing various thoughts on this.

Is it a point that would add value to the car over one fitted with a later syncro box or is it a black mark against the car? Put simply, if 2 indentical condition cars came up, one with Moss box and one upgraded/swapped then which car would have a premium.

Many thanks, I thought I'd keep it simple for my first question

PS, It'd be great to have a chat with anyone who's got 10 minutes to spare and knows these cars inside out and the market, just to make sure I'm going about this correctly.

Cheers guys.

[Heuer]

The Moss box is of its time but perfectly acceptable. It discourages fast gear changes (especially first to second) but if you take your time or double de-clutch it is not a problem. Besides, you can pull away in second or indeed third as there is so much torque on hand. All part of the character of the 3.8 and worth preserving.

Buyers tend to place value on originality and 'matching numbers' so an original spec 3.8 will have the most value.

As far as buying a car you would be well advised to contact Angus Moss (a Moderator here) and get him to assess the vehicle before purchase: http://mossjaguar.com/about-us-and-contact.html

[kennyh]

Many thanks for the prompt answer, appreciate that very much. The chap actually mentioned he takes off in second too. Not that fussed about it being awkward, it won't matter for the mileage I'd do in it. Just wondered whether it was good for residuals really and resale.

On viewing the car I am now certain it is as original as it can possibly be, right down to the period and correct radio,. Totally rebuilt but attention to detail a little lacking maybe and engine not touched...apart from pressure test and normal routine checks. Had unleaded head fitted a few years back though.

Even the mrs is onside with this purchase as she thinks it's nicer than my usual taste makes me bring back to the garage.....so I need to get it right. Many thanks for the link too....I will call.

I also have messaged Paul Brown as advised on my introductory thread and hoping for a reply.

Again, very helpful. Thank you once more.

[Heuer]

You may find this post helpful from our Knowledge Base (lots of useful information in that Forum as well): http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=890

You might want to consider buying Forum member Pete Crespin's book:


You can improve the Moss box by filling it with Redline MTL oil, something very many 3.8 owners do and swear by the improvements in shifting.

[MarkRado]

Nothing wrong with a very good Moss box with Redline transmission oil, it gives you a nice feedback and is very rewarding to shift once you have some practice.
If you intend to do a lot of long distance high speed touring and you want to retain top performance through the gears, then you might want to go for a 5speed. Many threads on the forum about that topic.

[kennyh]

Thanks Mark, I'm not overly fussed truth be honest about the box as long as it is functional. As classic car owners we all know and love the quirkiness of these things. I was more pondering about desirability of the Moss box over an upgrade, and if it'd make a sale harder or easier come resale time for me should I ever part with it.

Many thanks again.

[rswaffie]

Hi,
I’ve got a 3.8 with moss box and no real issues with it - redline MTL helps. As mentioned earlier, you just need to pause slightly between shifts.
Btw, all heads for the E’s run with unleaded by design as they are alloy with hardened seats.

[kennyh]

Hi,
I’ve got a 3.8 with moss box and no real issues with it - redline MTL helps. As mentioned earlier, you just need to pause slightly between shifts.
Btw, all heads for the E’s run with unleaded by design as they are alloy with hardened seats.

Many thanks for the further input, Appreciated. Yes I use redline MTL in other gearboxes too. It is so well respected by a lot of blokes.

Interesting re. them being unleaded from the factory. I wonder why he said it had been converted? Hmmm. Original head too for certain.

Thanks once more
Kenny

[mgcjag]

Up to now the common thinking was all XK engins have hardend seats in an ali head...however this post has thrown a spanner in the works http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14885

[cactusman]

Mine has a later box But my moss box is in the garage. A 3.8 with original parts....fab! Yes they may have had shortcomings but if it is free from rust and original what's not to like Puts a huge smile on my face when I drive mine

[christopher storey]

I really would not worry about the views of Mr SR Jenkins , Jaguar Engine Development. Almost 30 years have passed since he wrote that, and no-one so far as I know has ever paid any attention to his advice, and yet the engines including quite a number of 60 to 70 year old ones are still running perfectly!

On the question of the Moss box, if it is a serviceable one they are perfectly decent to use, even if not as good as the later all-synchro box. However, I would be very much against starting in 2nd, which on the Moss is 1.74 to one, because you will need a lot of nursing the clutch , and clutches are VERY expensive on an E because it is an engine out job

[max-it-out]

Might be a good idea to drive it before deciding if you can tolerate the Moss `box or not.The gearchange on the one I used to own was very slow 1st - 2nd and selecting 1 was not easy on the move.Otherwise it was fine.

[lopena]

I would suggest that a 3.8 E-type with its original engine and Moss gearbox is worth a significant premium +20%?) over an equivalent car without matching numbers (at least it is here in the States).

As for the driving experience, I very much enjoy the first gear whine and slow gear change associated with the Moss...it reminds me that this is a 50+ year-old car and it adds to the feeling of adventure whenever I take the E out for a drive.

Downshifting a Moss gearbox is certainly a challenge but can be mastered with practice. You’ll enjoy a sense of accomplishment when you get it right.

Redline MTL gear lube optimizes the Moss gear change and it highly recommended (increased gearbox leakages not withstanding).

Finally, I’ve been using unleaded fuel for decades with no ill effects...and, no, I never start out in second gear.

Alan
N.J.
1964 OTS

[Sarthe72]

My '61 car has done over 100,000 miles in my ownership on the original head so no, there is no problem with modern fuels. As already said, if you like classic cars then the quirkiness of the Moss box will make you smile, and when you get used to double declutching - and get it right without a graunch - you'll really be smiling. Something I've thought about for years but never done though is to change the rear axle ratio from a 3.31 to a 3.07 for more longer-legged cruising. I don't now do the mileage I did so it poses me no problem now.

[64etype]

I would suggest that a 3.8 E-type with its original engine and Moss gearbox is worth a significant premium +20%?) over an equivalent car without matching numbers (at least it is here in the States).

Alan

20%!? Where did you get that info? For 20 % at sale time I'd consider swapping out the sweet shifting, close ratio, all synchro EJ ('65-67) transplanted in my '64 for the original nasty Moss crash box sitting on the shelf. On second thought...ain't gonna happen. The next care taker for my car gets both. Guaranteed the Moss box never goes back in that chassis. I could possibly understand if the synchro box was a wide ratio KE....not much different than a Moss in terms or gear ratio spacing.

In response to the OP, it depends. A wide ratio KE synchro box is not much of an "upgrade" over the Moss. An EJ behind the free revving 3.8 is the best of all worlds...including most 5-speeeds with widely spaced 1-4.

[paydase]

The Moss gearbox has rather close 3 and 4 ratios, making the car lively especially with a 3.31 rear axle ratio, except (and fortunately) for the non synchro (and rarely used) first gear:

gears: 4, 3, 2, 1
Moss: 3.37, 1.86, 1.28, 1.0
EJ: 2.68, 1.74, 1.27, 1.0
KE: 2.93, 1.90, 1.39, 1.0

(see there: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14200&p=115558&hili ... ns#p115618)

The first gear of the Moss box can be passed without grunt by slightly engaging the 2nd before the first when stopped, and by double declutching when at slow speed.