Parts quality!?

[kevh]

Here`s an idea - why not check parts before sending them out to the customer , it would save a lot of time and hassle .

I run a mail order business and every order is picked by one person and checked by another before being packed, the packer also carries out a check, so every order is looked at by three different people, what could possibly go wrong? Some of the errors cannot be explained, the item dispatched is sometimes a completely different product to the one ordered
The important thing is how the errors are responded to, which in this case seems to have been positively.

[chrisfell]

If we want affordable parts delivered quickly, that is what we get. If we want high quality parts individually checked against patterns and specifications they won't be affordable and they won't be delivered quickly.

I prefer the former.

[cactusman]

Exactly Chris. My experience of SNG and others is generally very good. On the odd occasions when things were not correct on delivery the matter was efficiently resolved. That said the quality of some of the pattern parts, particularly cosmetic trim pieces, can be dubious. I certainly would not expect every nut, bolt, gasket, hose and clip to be inspected prior to dispatch (ordered quite a few of late!). But it would seem prudent for suppliers to visually inspect large/expensive bits prior to packing, especially if they are also supposed to be visually pleasing... Overall though we are very fortunate to be able to buy just about anything we need off the shelf for cars that are over 50 and for me, over 60 years old and have been out of production since 1974 or earlier!

[Heuer]

For classic Porsche's we are fortunate in that the Factory, courtesy of their Porsche Classic business, still produce parts - they all fit perfectly and are a joy to work with. They have invested heavily but as a result the part costs are quite high but you get what you pay for - think £500 per shock absorber, £750 per headlight.

i have had many conversations with Julian about this but from a business perspective it is not viable as Jaguar owners want low prices despite the value of the cars.

[angelw]

David Wrote:

i have had many conversations with Julian about this but from a business perspective it is not viable as Jaguar owners want low prices despite the value of the cars.

In terms of Tool Making, the cost difference to make the tooling to produce the part correctly as opposed to incorrectly would be infinitesimal.

For a part such as an S2/S2 Eyebrow Mould, the same degree of finishing of the tooling is required to get a good finish on the product, irrespective of whether the part fits or not. In this day and age, with the prolific scanning and digitizing equipment available to aid in producing tooling where perfect fit parts are available to copy, there is not much of an excuse available to justify making parts that are poor quality, yet all example of this part that I've handled have been just that.

Regards,

Bill

[bitsobrits]

"Affordable" parts that are unusable are not good value. Nor are affordable parts that don't look right and devalue the car. Or parts that need significant amounts of labor to make work. All of which I've experienced from the Jaguar supplier community in the past few years. The Ferrari, Porsche, and Lotus supplier communities that I regularly purchase from somehow have got it right. Expensive, yes, but worth it as the parts fit and function very closely to original if not absolutely exactly as original.

[bitsobrits]

As a case in point: http://www.georgiajag.com/Documents/Fil ... Seals.html

How difficult can it be to supply a correct, simple one piece oil seal?

[paydase]

That oil filter seal(s) sold by the usuals is a shame.
Why not provide the right dimension?

[PeterCrespin]

If the sampled items pass, then the remaining quantity is released for distribution. Much more time and cost efficient than inspecting each item when shipping.

This issue is as old as the practice of supply chains and trading.

SNGB are entitled to receive goods fit for resale and the original manufacturer should be batch testing at source. In some circumstances, such as high-value or mission-critical components, each item must be tested for conformity. I was at Speedy Cables a few weeks ago and they test every mechanical gauge on digital equipment for accuracy.

Feedback and customer service are also universal, and if SNGB get a pattern of failures despite feeding that back, they can change supplier. This was the essence of John Egan's quality drive in the early 80s, where Jaguar insisted on shared-risk suppliers who would suffer if quality targets were not met. In the case of complete cars there was of course final road test before despatch, but even then there was/is a pre-delivery inspection to ensure the selling dealer's name doesn't get dragged through the mud. It's a team effort, which is why there should be empowered sales staff and impeccable service.

In this case, you'd imagine the branch staff should have done a quick visual inspection on this low-ish quantity/high value item, but... Despite (or probably because) these are heavy, bulky, single-piece parts, they need careful protective packing to avoid damage. The problem is that the better/more protective the packaging is, the harder it is for it to be quality-checked and repacked as original. I suspect some of us would grumble if parts arrived that looked as if they had been opened or disturbed. That's fine, provided we then accept that quality issues are unlikely to be the retailer's fault. I wouldn't expect a seller to open every sealed box to check the bulb on a 12V battery, even though they own the problem if they sell me a dud due to a supplier SNAFU. The seller should be apologetic, not defensive and everybody wins when the manufacturer gets retailer feedback and improves the production process.

Egan tried to ram this home with quality banners hanging from the rafters, and upbeat 'reminder' bulletins etc.

[DWW]

I feel this thread should have been locked after satisfactory resolution was reached, which it has.

[mgcjag]

Hi Danny....we are reluctant to lock threads.....and only rarely when things get a bit out of hand and personal...members can have their say but stay polite to each other and the suppliers....Steve

[Phil P]

Manufacturing parts is not easy. I too had to return a manifold that had porosity in it and the replacement still had some porosity but in a less evident position. I accepted this because I didn't think that a third would be any better and after all, it's just a car manifold.
My experience tells me that you can't inspect quality into a product....the manufacturing process has a natural quality level to which it will always return unless the process is improved. More inspection will simply reject more product unless there is fundamental root cause corrective action.
SNGB already has a tool at its disposal to effect improvements in both its in-house manufacturing quality and supply chain quality in a cost effective way; ISO9001....certificate number FS37571.
Yours,
Phil

[Series1 Stu]

ISO 9001 certification does not guarantee that parts are of merchantable quality. It just suggests that, at some point in time, the company had an acceptable quality management system in place. Neither does it set quality standards.

If quality procedures are in place then appropriate sample sizes will be inspected and decisions regarding accepting or rejecting the batch made accordingly.

Whether everybody in the organisation buys in to these procedures and acts in line with the system is another matter.

These days, customers delegate inspection procedures to their suppliers who provide inspection reports etc. with the goods. Rather like marking your own exam papers.

Regards

[caveman]

From ISO:

ISO 9001 sets out the criteria for a quality management system and is the only standard in the family that can be certified to (although this is not a requirement). It can be used by any organization, large or small, regardless of its field of activity. In fact, there are over one million companies and organizations in over 170 countries certified to ISO 9001.

This standard is based on a number of quality management principles including a strong customer focus, the motivation and implication of top management, the process approach and continual improvement. These principles are explained in more detail in ISO’s quality management principles. Using ISO 9001 helps ensure that customers get consistent, good-quality products and services, which in turn brings many business benefits.

[chrisfell]

Hmmmmm.....

I recall ISO 9001 and it's many predecessors being implemented in the various organisations I've worked for. On average all these standards did was add costs to already quite well run business processes. In some businesses, the processes were already far more robust than required for these standards, and in others the certification was seen as a hindrance to the process of making profits which would result in larger bonuses. The well run businesses continued to be well run. The badly run ones continued to be badly run.

In my opinion ISO 9001 is meaningless. It is a label, nothing more.

[1954Etype]

All ISO 9000 does in my opinion is give you a paper trail to follow when things go wrong. They don't stop things going wrong. (And as Chris says, just adds a meaningless label to your company - a bit like SAP).

[max-it-out]

OK , my 2 cents worth ....I think posts like this are excellent - we should complain when parts are sub-standard . In the UK we don`t tend to complain enough If we all keep quiet , how are things ever going to improve ?
One example ... Ordered a vac capsule from one of the usual suspects ( name witheld to protect the guilty ) . Found it didn`t work and why ( the spring inside was much too strong ) , notified the company and it seemed like they weren`t interested / couldn`t be bothered , I suspect they are still selling the same dud item now
Also , seals for the rear lights , too thin and they don`t seal properly . They look vaguely similar ( from 6 ft away ) maybe that`s good enough

[Maikel]

OK , my 2 cents worth ....I think posts like this are excellent - we should complain when parts are sub-standard . In the UK we don`t tend to complain enough If we all keep quiet , how are things ever going to improve ?
One example ... Ordered a vac capsule from one of the usual suspects ( name witheld to protect the guilty ) . Found it didn`t work and why ( the spring inside was much too strong ) , notified the company and it seemed like they weren`t interested / couldn`t be bothered , I suspect they are still selling the same dud item now
Also , seals for the rear lights , too thin and they don`t seal properly . They look vaguely similar ( from 6 ft away ) maybe that`s good enough

Exactly that is my point, we are all struggling with the same low quality bits. When I talk to others about non fitting items, they all start to laugh because they had the same. But nobody bothers to complain, because you only need the item one time so you arrange a fitting by yourself. But how many are we and how often do things need adjusting. In a better world with ISO, TQM, Kaizen, do it right first time, you name it .... I had all that stuff during my studies in Coventry 1992 and thought that was common sense in UK. But obviously not anymore or not all over.

The oil canister seal, is a pain, the chrome on the rear tail gate window, the front wing seal recess, a nightmare !!! I had a complete set of front suspension rubber bushes with an inner diameter not passing the shafts .... to make those parts fit properly you spend the same amount or more than the parts price itself.

If the supplier is honest and fair enough to his customers he should be committing himself to saying within their famous ISO.....,
2 customer complains: advice customers online next to the product a quality or fitting issue
5 customer complains: Starting a retooling or sourcing new supplier process
10 Customer complains: Stop selling the product.

I think, if we as customers get the feeling we are not shouted down, but considered as part of the Kaizen we are happy to contribute and make things better for all of us.

SNGB is very visible in this forum when it is about presenting new parts.
Why should we not have a similar category for non fitting or low quality parts, regardless which supplier.
We could indicate the problem and everybody with the same can comment (with pics), then it is up to us to decide if and where to purchase and nobody else to blame. That is what the forum is for. Learning from the others, good and bad experiences.

I am not an administrator here but I could imagine if we have at least 10 people wanting such a chapter, David (have taken Steve out as he is a moderator), could install it and we could all upload our faulty parts. How is that idea? It is not to blame the supplier, but to avoid frustration for everyone of us. Or you send me your parts and I will make a Youtube video of it every now and then.
Let me know, I will be at Jaguar Spares Day (as always), so bring your parts and story along.
Maikel

[mgcjag]

Hi Maikel...please note im a moderator and not an administrator.......Any member is able to contact Heuer (David) pm or email with suggestions on what they would like to see on the forum....David will give his opinion........Steve

[max-it-out]

What we need is some German efficiency here