Values

SEJohnson95 · Post by **SEJohnson95** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:21 pm

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/new ... softening/

Mmm... That's a surprise, I sort of saw that coming...

drcarrera · Post by **drcarrera** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:29 pm

Hmmm...

Just as I'm looking to buy one! I must admit all but one of the cars I've looked at over the past three months or so still seem to be for sale, which I guess means the prices being asked are on the optimistic side.

Perhaps I should wait a few months ... :?

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:44 pm

Well, they are talking about the daft prices being paid for the very early cars, although those prices have dragged up the rest of the stock.

There are some economic fundamentals which show the classic car market generally being over-valued currently, and a lot of collectors, traders and auctioneers seem to be expecting the market adjustment pretty soon.

We shouldn't really be surprised, as any commodity that can double in price over 3 or 4 years can also half in 3 or 4 months!

Mark

Post by **Heuer** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:54 pm

"As soon as the wider economy recovers ......." About 10 - 15 years according to most analysts!
"You can pick up good E-types for ?25,000 ......."

SEJohnson95 · Post by **SEJohnson95** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:57 pm

Heuer wrote:"As soon as the wider economy recovers ......." About 10 - 15 years according to most analysts!
"You can pick up good E-types for ?25,000 ......."

Depends what you class as good. Not everyone wants a trailer queen and are quite happy to drive an "old" car. They are few and far between mind you. Still it serves as a warning I guess

Post by **Heuer** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:11 pm

As that quote comes from someone in the Motor Trade we should use their definitions:

Excellent ? Can also be described as superb, cars that can go straight into a showroom or show.
Good ? Can also be described as very good, cars that require tidying or detail work to bring up to scratch.
Project ? Can also be described as fair, cars that require repair, overhaul or restoration.

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:16 pm

I was talking to Richard Hudson Evans at the Brightwell's sale last week, and he was firmly of the view ( based on rather strong evidence ) that a bubble created by high percentage borrowings by speculators had created an unsustainable bubble . Whereas 2 years ago, lenders might lend 30 % of a car's value, now they were being asked to lend up to 90% . You don't have to be too much of a student of economic history to see where that leads

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:20 pm

I went to the Brightwells auction as well Christopher, and the sale results are a firm indicator of the direction of the market.

One of the chaps I went with gave me an interesting perspective. He is a collector and driver, and occasional rally driver, and his era of interest is a bit later than mine, being modern classics from the 80s and 90s.

We went around having a look at the cars before the auction, and he seemed to be making notes whenever I started to pour over a car.

At the end of the auction, he handed me a sheet of paper showing me the 6 cars I spent some time looking at, along with their final selling price. There was one sentence underneath the 6....'you could have bought ALL of these for the same amount you got for the E Type last year!!!!'

The cars were a DB7 Aston Vantage, 500 SL Mercedes, 930 Porsche Turbo, 348 Ferrari, barn find MG SA, and the cream of the crop, the Piaggio Ape! All of those for the same price as an ex-Californian S1 Coupe.

The 930 didn't actually sell, but he was in the ball park. I'm afraid that as classic cars have soared in value over the past few years, these more modern, but undoubted, classics are looking like absolute bargains. OK, not the MG or the Ape, but the Mercedes and Aston in particular, at ?10k and ?20k, are just crazy low prices. The Ferrari at ?35k has to be pretty good value, and I would have thought that the widow maker 930 would have broken through the ?100k barrier by now, but it struggled at nearly half that.

I didn't buy anything though as my free garage space as was is now filled with more fun RenaultSport products from Dieppe! But I still really enjoy my old S3 E Type and other classics, and I would welcome a re-adjustment in the classic car market to enable more folks to enjoy them. Otherwise they will skip over the cars from the 60s, and go straight to the amazing stuff from more recent years that is currently so well affordable.

exkay120 · Post by **exkay120** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:04 am

At last, i've been saying it for a while now that this will happen, in my opinion its the best thing that can happen, prices dropping in the right direction.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:53 am

Thank God we all bought our cars because we love them and not to make money or as with a new car be prepared to lose money. This should sort the car lovers from the investors. It's strange, my children will be more concerned than me. We had them for love also, but they have proved the best investment I have ever made, even if they do cost the the earth.

exkay120 · Post by **exkay120** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:59 am

Well said Tony, i totally agree with you.

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:21 am

I don't entirely agree. I bought my 3 E types from Paul Webb in the 1990s, who had dealt in the cars since the mid 60s. His motivation to go out to California for three months of the year, apart from a spot of sun, was to find rust-free and straight E types that he could bring back to the UK, and make some money in the process.

In so doing he brought back over 500 E types over the years, mostly for restoration, and gave me and many others the opportunity to restore a couple of amazing cars that we otherwise wouldn't have been able to find.

Most of our cars are restored using original old parts and new repro parts supplied by folks who are doing this to make money. The bodyshells, trim, suspension, engines etc. etc. are restored by folks who are doing the work to make a living.

If it wasn't for the dealers, the parts guys and the restorers, there wouldn't be too many E Types on the road now, so perhaps we should celebrate these guys making a living out of our hobby.

As for folks buying the cars as an investment, well that doesn't worry me either. They can be seen as preserving the heritage by tucking the cars away, usually in a perfect environment, for a few years for others to enjoy at a later date!

My glass is definitely half full today!!!

Mark

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:13 pm

Mark,

I agree with you regarding the trade (or at least the good ones). I was more getting at the people who buy as an investment and don't really care about the cars. They drive the prices up in a bubble only for them to come tumbling down later. This makes it difficult for the people who just like old cars.
I suppose a smart enthusiast would hold back a few year untill the bubble bursts, however being enthusiast they find it difficult to wait and work on impulse and desire to have the car.

I suppose we all like aur cars to go up in value, but we must not be disappointed when they devalue. It cannot be good for the restoration trade to have prices fall as it makes it financially unviable to spend. 100k on a full restoration when the car will not be worth the purchase price plus the cost of the restoration. I think this is happening now, but a real enthusiast will spend the money to have a perfect or near perfect car even if he does lose money.

flatfloor 3.8 · Post by **flatfloor 3.8** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:29 pm

Values of all classic cars are always on the move. Aston Martins values tend to be the barometer, if they go up so do most others and when they go down others follow. E-types have seen huge gains in recent years with the big dealers asking crazy prices. At the London classic car show a few weeks ago Eagle had e-types up for ?400000, ?500000 and more. This maybe mad money, but "good cars" cannot be bought for ?25000. In the last few weeks cars have sold on e-bay needing full restoration for ?30000-?35000. Restoration costs must be the guide as anyone who has either restored or is restoring will know that you will spend at least ?50000 to do a proper job, even if you do a lot of the work yourself. Body, paint, trim etc the costs are huge,( I think I spent nearly ?6000 on chrome). If you have all the work done at a good restorers it can cost 2 or 3 times that. Purchase cost plus restoration cost is a good guide. I don't think the majority of owners on this web site have much to worry about from a "softening of values".

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:49 pm

Tony wrote: my children will be more concerned than me. We had them for love also, but they have proved the best investment I have ever made, even if they do cost the the earth.

Hear! Hear! First sentence in this thread that didn't leave me vaguely queasy! Well said Tony - thank God there are some things you can't put a price on and where the playing field is more level. Oh, and can I borrow the E for my son's wedding? :-)

Anyone pouring over six lots at at car auction is asking to get thrown out. Accidental spillage is bad enough :-)

Pete

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:20 pm

There was poring and pouring, and in the case of the chap who bought the MG SA, definitely some poor-ing.

exkay120 · Post by **exkay120** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:43 pm

Gonna to make you feel queasy again Peter?Well said Tony??the bloody cars are not worth these crazy prices !! and i own 2 of the early ones?get the prices down so that the real enthusiasts can afford to buy them again, not just dealers that want to earn a fortune out of them !

Post by **Heuer** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:00 pm

Oxford Dictionary definition: 'Enthusiast': a person who is very interested in a particular activity or subject

Synonyms: fan, fanatic, devotee, aficionado, addict, lover, admirer, supporter, follower

I can't find anything that associates "value", "prices", "rich", "poor", "greed", "investment", "fortune" or indeed "real" synonymously with the the term enthusiast. I assume if there are 'real enthusiasts' there must be unreal enthusiasts out there - or are you making this up as you go along?

Post by **1954Etype** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:34 pm

I'm an enthusiast so will you sell me your cars for what you think they are worth? Promise l will look after them.

you think the bubble has burst? Hmmm, not filtered down to me yet. The article referred to specifically discussed the ridiculous prices for early cars and l agree, something had to happen sooner or later.

The S2 cars have increased in value and still are. They came from a much lower starting price though. We have a growing list of enthusiasts wanting to buy good, rust free S2 cars and demand is still outstripping supply.

exkay120 · Post by **exkay120** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:05 pm

OK, i'm on a hiding to none here?.forgive me guys, no more of my opinions to come, i've been cyber beaten up :-(

P.S?.i'm gonna give both my series one E Types away?who wants them ???

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Values

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