Determining Provenance with no Vin

[Rolls 912]

Hi everyone

I've been offered (what I suspect) is a series 1.5 restoration project / rolling shell. The chap who commenced the project has passed away. There are a few boxes with bits from the strip down.

I'm told by the executor that the car was originally purchased in extremely poor condition some time ago. I have been informed that the sub frame was replaced (it does appear to be new) and hence, the chassis number stamping is missing. The Vin plate has also gone to God. It along with many parts i suspect have been tossed by the executors.

I'm curious, is there any other way to determine the vehicles provenance? No Vin plate, chassis is not stamped, no engine. What appears to be the original gear box is still in situ and is stamped as EB7537 - JS

I know from other restorations that I have done (e.g. 901's) the panels are usually stamped.

My question to those in the know - are there are other identifying features that could help me deduce the vehicles provenance? Without being able to prove its identity may mean that I cannot register the car / worthless. Given the enormous expense needed to finish the project, I am feeling uneasy.

Any guidance or assistance would be greatly appreciated.

[Heuer]

There should be a body number tag riveted either in the number plate recess (OTS) or on the l/h inner wheel arch panel.


There should be a body numver stamped on the bonnet strengthener:


The body number was also scrawled in crayon on many interior parts.

[rswaffie]

Hi,
When I was stripping down my '63 FHC, the body number tag was on the driver's side inner wheel arch as in reply above (lhd drive car) and I found a crayon written body number behind the rear hatch trim panel.

[Rolls 912]

That's great. Thank you for the feedback. This car is missing the bonnet. So per above I'll see if I can:
Locate the chalked marks on the inside of interior panels
Locate the plate on rear inner arch panels
Locate the plate where the license plate lives

Hopefully one of these areas will reveal its true identity!

If only the previous owner left the plate in situ!

May I also ask, Does the orientation of the fuel tank change (90 degrees) from a series 1 to a 1.5?

Sorry - I'm new to E's.

[Heuer]

No. All E-Type's went down the line being ready to accept LHD or RHD parts which were confined to steering rack, fluid bottle location plus some minor parts; relatively simple to do. There is a full guide on LHD>RHD conversion in the Knowledge Base.

[38E]

What leads you to believe your car a Series 1.5? Your gearbox number, EB7537-JS is from a Moss box from the period around late 1962 and was used on the 3.8s. If you have any engine parts at all, the engine number was stamped on the flywheel, crank and I think the harmonic balancer (besides the head and block).

You may find crayoned body numbers on the back of instrument clusters and trim panels besides in the normal places but Jaguar records regarding body numbers are not always reliable.

All electrical components are dated as is all the glass so that may also help to narrow down the year. Any numbers you can find can be checked against the database on xkedata.com which may at least help determine the period of the car.

[Alty Ian]

Hi Rolls 912 (what is your name ?)

You should be feeling more than uneasy at present. Without the car's identity, you just have a load of parts and you will NOT get the car registered with DVLA who want irrefutable evidence of the car's identity.

Even if you find the dates on components (which will be easy to find) that wont confirm the chassis number. Even having the body number might make it hard to track as when the cars came off the production line the body numbers dont follow consecutively with chassis numbers.

The best place to find body number apart from that one tag is on the back of the dashboard panels.

I wouldnt part with any money UNTIL you get an confirmed identity for the car.

Ian

[PeterCrespin]

the sub frame was replaced (it does appear to be new) and hence, the chassis number stamping is missing. The Vin plate has also gone to God.....No Vin plate, chassis is not stamped, no engine. What appears to be the original gear box is still in situ and is stamped as EB7537 - JS

Without being able to prove its identity may mean that I cannot register the car / worthless. Given the enormous expense needed to finish the project, I am feeling uneasy.

Any guidance or assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Call me cynical, but since the original subframe has been thrown out, I'd say you have a rolling shell stripped of its identity. Hot stuff. As someone with two stolen E-types in his past, I'd hate to think you have one of mine...

[Rolls 912]

Yes I agree with all of the above. I certainly don't want something that's not legit. I'm doubtful that someone would have gone to the trouble of steeling a rusted out E 15 years ago then to go to the effort of importing. The only thing that gives me some confidence is that the previous owner was a respectable member of the business community. I'm doubtful he would have been duped, although, you never know.

The body matching scenario sounds similar to the world of 901's which I'm familiar with.

What makes me think it's a 1.5. Not a lot really!

Only plausible possibility from the information I have would be a transitional series 1 to series 1.5. Per jag-lovers website - "This was a very confused year since Jaguar was converting the E-type to conform to US Federal Regulations. Some of the features of the Series I were combined with the Series II. "

Unusual features that don't stack up include:
Aluminium centre dash - with the later 68-69 heater slides either sides of the dash
Mutilpe holes on boot lid for three lines of badges
Floor pan cut outs for later model
Tail light location above bumper
Moss box although this now sounds like it's from an earlier model.
Early seats

I can't post pics from my iPad as the images are too large. I'll try from my p.c. Later.

Thanks again for the advice. Enthusiasts forums are an invaluable resource. How in gods name did people restore without the net!!!

[abowie]

You have an unidentifiable mish-mash of used parts, in poor condition by the sound of it.

Personally I'd avoid this like the plague. Even if it's incredibly cheap you're still looking at huge money to produce a car that you then may well never be able to register and drive.

[Rolls 912]

hopefully these pics work.

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IMG_8022.JPG (120.61 KiB) Viewed 11889 times

[Rolls 912]

IMG_8023.JPG (109.28 KiB) Viewed 11889 times

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[christopher storey]

I'm afraid I think the advice you have been given is good advice. This is at best a "bitsa" car ( bits of this, bits of that ) and at the very best you could only get it registered on a Q plate , if you could register it at all, because I think you might have many visits from the stolen vehicles squad. Even if you did get it registered, its value would be very limited indeed, and there is still a great deal of money to be spent on it . What as a matter of interest is the engine number ( and is it a 4.2 or a 3.8 which would match the gearbox) ? It will be either on the left hand top flange of the bellhousing , or on the block just above the oil filter housing . Unless you can go some way to estabishing its original ID , I would not touch it with a bargepole

[Gfhug]

I'll let people like Christopher and Heuer confirm this, but those pictures seem to show a 3.8 tacho but with a S1.5 or S2 choke and heater controls yet with early S1 or maybe S1.5 centre panel. Edited, re-reading one of your postings you had noticed some of these anomolies, which just confirms it does seem to be a bitsa.
How much is being asked? Maybe it would be worth buying for the bits to sell on? There you would need someone in the know to help you.
Where are you, maybe a forum member could look over the car with you?
Geoff

[mgcjag]

Those photes definatly dont match up with your descriotion of a rusted out E with no engine....looks very much like a reasonable car thats had quite a bit removed......smells very fish to me

[cactusman]

I agree with all the other comments. The car is a mish mash of bits from more than one car. No vin plate. No V5. No tangible ID. I would be extremely cautious . The previous owner may well have been genuine but then again....why go the the trouble of removing anything which gives the true identity of the vehicle. As someone who had his nicked (got mine back though) I am deeply suspicious that at least some parts of the car have a shady origin......walk away.

[Rolls 912]

All very sensible advice. Thank you.

I think I'm going to give this puppy a miss. I don't mind the non-numbers matching situation but if it turned out to be stolen I would be very disappointed. And it does sound a little fishy.

Saddens me though. Always had a dream of restoring an early E however the prices are now well out of my league. For that matter most quality classics are getting very difficult to find. I'm halfway through an Esprit S2 resto and even that fibreglass tub is costing a fortune.

Thanks for all of the advice. You are lucky to have be the custodians of such a beautiful marque.

[mgcjag]

Hi Rolls.....you could always explain to the executors showing the comments mentioned here and if tney can find any paperwork for tne car it could help especially if they as the sellers might be looked on as selling a possible stolen car.....this could be an incentive for them to search a bit more.....thats assuming tne executors are not just a firm if solicitors.....if you can deal with tne family it could help especially if you tell tnem how keen you are to restore there loved ones unfinished project....

[Heuer]

Buy it, break it for spares.

[38E]

I'd say that this is worth looking into a bit more. Maybe try to get some paperwork or notes from the executors. The body looks fairly good.

If the frames are new, those only come from one or two places, so that might be an avenue for enquiry. Strange that the hinges remain attached. Those normally would stay on the bonnet. The Webasto roof narrows it down too because they aren't that common.

Other than the badge holes in the hatch, some features appear to be from a 3.8, the gearbox, the glass washer bottle, the dash centre etc. A lot can be told from the body if it would be inspected by someone with experience. Does it have the fuel pump hole cut-out on the right rear wheel well? If not, it's definitely a 3.8. How about the hatch hinges and hatch prop? Old or later type? The rear suspension is different too, thicker drivehafts, no splash guards etc.

If the price is right, I'd definitely be looking harder.