Is this legal, honest or normal???

[PeterCrespin]

I'm genuinely confused and looking for advice.

My S2 OTS suffered damage from hitting a bank under the bonnet, which damaged the undertray and slightly bent the support frame and bowed out a wing slightly and caused slight damage to the bulkhead around the seal channel where the bonnet jammed back against it momentarily and damaged the bonnet fit. Car has been driven straight and true for six months like this but looks a bit iffy so eventually I put it in for an insurance repair.

Estimated repair cost is about 25K - gulp. This might result in the car being written off as the market value is probably mid thirties (it cost me half that so I'm happy without an agreed value.). The bit that puzzles me is the cost of the estimate. I haven't seen it yet but apparently it's very detailed. 208 hours plus parts. The repairer wanted to discuss possible options with me before submitting. Says if they do offer a cash settlement and I take that plus the 'salvage' I could opt to do less work and still have a reasonable car, which I understand perfectly well.

The thing that left me feeling slightly quesy was his request I pay 950 up front to cover two days spent preparing the estimate, refundable if I get them to work on it. What???

I can totally see their point of view if they have gone though the car thoroughly and costed up every part and the time needed, though I am not convinced it is a two day job for people who work on E-types routinely. They deserve to be recompensed for that time and effort but I have never heard of paying for that in an insurance claim, any more than I have heard of payingfor the engineer's time who initially came out for the insurers to look at the car and assess the claim before booking a repairer.

It feels odd me having to pay 950 for them to send the estimate in because if I decided not to have them do the work I'm 950 quid out of pocket. If the car was written off and I did it myself or went elsewhere I kiss that goodbye. It feels slightly as if i am being blackmailed to have them do the work, though that is too strong a word.

As I see it they are preparing the estimate for the insurers aren't they? The insurers were chasing them yesterday for their figures but the repairer bought some time by saying truthfully that they needed to discuss some points with me and it would be with them shortly. Isn'tthe cost of this whole deal covered by the insurer or is preparation of an estimate an uninsured loss? One part of me feels like asking the insurers will this 950 be covered by them, but i don't want to rock the boat.

So the repairer needs to be paid for estimate time (or is that a normal cost of business?) but has anyone come across a situation where they have had to fork out a large sum up front from their own pocket, only refunded if they leave the car with the same people. It seems like me just driving the car away and cancelling the whole thing will leave me almost a grand out unless I am happy for them not to send an estimate to the insurer. At least I ASSUME I could drive my car away for free - maybe not? I haven't asked but maybe they wouldn't release it without me paying 950, although no mention was made of a charge when I drove it there and left it with them.

I can't put my finger on it but it feels like something odd is going on. This is a very high class Jag repairer and I would like them to do the work if the insurers don't write the car off. If they do, I might think of a cheaper way of smartening the old girl up since she is perfectly roadworthy as she stands. If they had just asked me for 250 or something - even non-refundable - I wouldn't have turned a hair but kissing 950 goodbye unless I let them work on it? What do people think and given I need to act quickly, what would people do?

Pete

[vee12eman]

Hi Pete,

I never heard of this and whilst I never had an accident in an E-type, I did have an accident in a classic car on agreed value insurance and only had to do the standard "get three quotes". How would it be if your insurance company wanted three quotes and does anyone have experience of such a high cost for an estimate for repairs other than accident damage, I have never heard of such a high request even for a quote for restoration.

I would say that if there was no mention of a cost for the quote at the outset, how could they ask for one now? Did they give you any paperwork, which might have mentioned it? Even if they did, was it obvious they expected money? I believe it would be compulsory and their responsibility to ensure you knew you would be charged, even though no work actually took place beyond examination. At the very least I would question them and haggle the amount down, using the fact that nothing was mentioned to you when leaving the car as a very strong bargaining chip.

Of course this is just opinion, but surely they should have told you what you were getting yourself in to?

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Regards

[PeterCrespin]

No paperwork signed on drop-off, no mention of a charge for an estimate, just leave it with them and I'd hear from them.

Insurers asked me who did I want to do the work and being an E-type with potential hidden faults I said I wanted a total check by an expert repairer, not just the average body shop. This meant only two people within about fifty miles of me as far as I knew. I initially chose the one slightly closer for convenience sake but I was warned away from them by someone in the business, so before I sent it to them and while I was driving the car around this summer I changed my mind to the second of the inital two suggestions who I knew would be dearer but probably do a better job.

Contractually there was neither a verbal nor any written agreement for me to pay for an estimate and I therefore do not feel obliged to pay for one. But on the other hand possession is nine-tenths of the law perhaps and I do want a goods relationship with this outfit and if the insurers don't write it off I would have them do the work. If they gave me a cash settlement I'd get better value elsewhere - even allowing for a loss of 950 but why should ~I lose 950? I guess the repairer doesn't get paid by the insurer after all, so they are looking to revcover their (high) costs by charging me for an estimate service?

In the darkest possible construction, they could be colluding with me to submit an inflated estimate, get the car written off, and then do business with me privately on a list of subtly different work including less accident repair but more bits I'd like done 'while they have the car'. But that would seem odd as their revenue would be lower from me, no matter what my shopping list was, than charging the insurers for the full estimated list of accident repair work.....which is why this has me puzzled somewhat?

[christopher storey]

Peter : this sounds very strange . How on earth is 25K arrived at ? What exactly is bent/broken other than the bonnet assembly ( and not all of that by the sounds of it ) and the bonnet frame . There is also the possibility - but it is not in my view a very likely one - of engine frame damage - and the even less likely possibility of damage to the bulkhead . I strongly advise you to have a word with Hutson's ( Andy is the manager) who make most of the sheet metal stuff . Also, quite how ?950 is needed to prepare an estimate is very strange . That equates in most restorers to something like 20 hours work, which considering they have already prepared an estimate is peculiar in the extreme

I should also ask, have you done your own alignment checks using the data in the manual, to see how far if at all the frames are bent . This would give you a good idea of the real , rather than apparent, extent of any underlying damage

[Heuer]

When I first took my car to CMC to have (service) work done they said as the car was unknown to them they would charge ?650 for a complete report and appraisal, refundable if I had the work done there. They were very upfront about the fee and explained in the past people had simply taken their very detailed report and worked through the list themselves at home. As I say, honest and upfront about the charge. I was talking to a friend yesterday who took his Type-S into a Jaguar dealer because of an ABS warning light and they wanted ?120 just to plug the car into their diagnostics, remedial work was extra! It is unusual though for accident repairer to charge for a quote. I suggest you give Harry a ring and get an inside track on what the industry 'standards' are and go from there.

There was a member here who bought a stunningly restored OTS and took it to a well known dealer for an 'appraisal' as a confidence booster and got a bill for ?2k with no prior agreement to spend that much.

Get the car back ASAP and tell the business concerned to pursue you through the Court if you have not signed anything. Maybe worth posting on the Telegraph's Honest John Forum: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/threads.htm?f=12 and see if they can offer any free advice.

Please keep us informed as this could impact many owners.

[PeterCrespin]

OK. If someone else charges ?650 it seems like my lot are not so far out on a limb, but there was certainly no mention whatsoever that they were doing anything chargeable to me, or anything other than an estimate of repairs for the insurer... I didn't ask for a full survey or inspection for my own purposes. No point, given that I built the thing.

Anyway, in June when I contacted FJ they got on to the insurer who - as I thought - then got a local engineer to come and look at the car for an initial appraisal. I thought he was like a freelance subcontractor, so I called him back this lunchtime and asked for an off-the record chat about the matter.

The appraiser told me that in all his years in the business he had sometimes passed a line on the repair invoice saying something like "Fee for estimate ?50", nodding those through as part of the total. Then he said

"I have never, in all my years, heard of anyone asking for anything even vaguely like this up front. They are taking you to the cleaners and seeing if you offer to buy the washing powder as well. I do not even know what planet they are on."

From which I gather that like me, he was not over-impressed. He was immovable in his opinion that far from taking an alleged two days to do the estimate (for which the repairer assured me "we are not going to charge you anything like the full rate") it will have taken them an hour, plus maybe an hour typing.

I was explaining that they were very high class repairers, that presumably all the items on the estimate would be kosher - merely judged to their high in-house standards, and that I was not impugning their integrity since I didn't want to fall out with them and would like them to do the work if the car was not written off. However, at that point it came out that far from being an independent engineer he is an employee of the insurance company. Ooops! He was therefore doubly concerned that we were both being hung out to dry. I did remind him that at the outset I'd told him I wanted an off-the-record discussion when I thought he was an independent, and he agreed that the matter would not go any further. Hmmm?

Anyway, since it was apparently he who had chased my repairers a few days ago to see what was happening, I'm certainly not handing over best part of a grand. I've left a message for them to send the estimate to my insurers (AKA the appaiser) in the normal way. Once he has it, we'll see what it looks like. Watch this space.

[christopher storey]

Peter : would you pm me with the identity of the people who have it at the moment? I will of course not reveal it to anyone else.

[Heuer]

I would not put any trust in the "off the record" discussion. If he is an employee of the insurance company his loyalty (and long term employment) is with them so he will have to disclose it in case it comes back to bite. Besides all telephone calls to insurance companies are recorded as a matter of routine. Could be in your interest of course as they are likely to kick back at the body shop tactics and not leave you out of pocket. Maybe you should get another two estimates from more reasonable garages?

Based on your location and what you have said I am guessing your experiences match the Forum member I mentioned above and the vendor is one and the same. If you want to compare notes please PM me Pete.

[PeterCrespin]

I agree about 'off the record', as he is bound to make at the very least a mental note of it, albeit he is not office-based and did at a couple of points refer to us talking 'man-to-man' and similar phrases, to indicate he was talking straight rather than taking a corporate line. But yes, hence my heavy scepticism.

However, his main concern will simply be to see his employers don't get ripped off and he is seen to be a wise gate-keepr of corporate funds. He can gain all those brownie points within the organisation without necessarily affecting my case. In the unlikely event he ends up overseeing a similar case with the same repairer, he will be able to refer back and build up a picture of their bona fides and on that wider basis take whatever steps he needs to without directly affecting me or anytone else.

Triumph of hope over experience maybe...

As for getting other quotes, I really don't fancy schlepping all over the country looking for top class E-type repairers. Anyone vouch for an outfit in the northern home counties or maybe Bedford / Coventry / Northants area?

[Heuer]

I can vouch for CMC obviously, E Type UK and I believe Alan Proctor in Worksop is very highly regarded by JDHT, JEC and Forum members: 01909 501660

Another satisfied customer for Alan: http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1209

These three will be well worth a trip despite the extra few miles involved

[marsh]

Peter

I used the services of Allan Proctor, as mentioned by Heuer to carry out fairly substantial bodywork on my V12 Coupe and the standard of the work and courtesy throughout was exemplary.

Marsh

[MarkE]

Alan did my S3 OTS as well, and made a good job of it, with a fast turnaround.

[38E]

Holy smoke!!

I'd heard times were getting tough in England but this takes the cake.

?950 for a collision repair estimate, some outfit charging a ?650 fee before they will condescend to work on a person's car?

Providing detailed repair estimates is a normal cost of doing business. I've never heard of a charge being made, in any of the places I've lived, England, Canada or the USA. And if the charge wasn't made very clear beforehand, I'd say "thanks but tough luck".

Alsso, aren't you contractually obliged to notify your insurance company within a certain time that you've smacked up your car and want to make a claim? Surely you can't just decide six months later that you want it fixed and expect them to pay out.

And as a final insult, this outfit will give you what amounts to a 5% discount if you hand them ?25,000 worth of business?

[abowie]

That sounds very dodgy to me. Personally I would not deal with them at all. Find someone else.

[chrisvine]

I asked someone involved in the insurance industry and, although they deal exclusively with modern cars where expected repair costs are well understood, they did think it sounded very dubious.

Firstly they've never heard of repairers expecting payment for any quotation work and you would be relying on the repairers giving you the money back, once they had received payment from the insurance company. Also they thought your insurance company would probably expect 2 or 3 quotes rather than the first, especially if it was 25K.

[PeterCrespin]

Thanks to all.

Indeed, preparing estimates should be a normal cost of doing business in my view. I can only assume the repairer felt for some reason that they had done a full survey or condition report which might be chargeable? I certainly didn't ask for one though I DID say that the reason I was bringing the car to them was because I did not trust the average body shop to know enough to do a full geometry check to eliminate any distortion resulting from the bump. So it is possible they spent significant time doing that, but not having seen the estimate yet I don't know. Either way, coming to me after the fact, with nothnig said or written down, and asking for that kind of money is poor practice IMO.

Clive the accident was notified immediately. Being a specialist car in a fairly remote part of the ocuntryside there aren't that many places that could do ap rofessional quote and the insuerer knows it so they asked me where did I want to send it and I picked the two closest that I could think of and thereafter the appraiser checked the availability of my first choice and left it to me to book it in but I wanted the car for E50 and some continental trips and by late summer I'd been warned off my first hcoice and therefore contacted the insurer again to make arrangements with my second choice, which is where we came in.

I agree that in many areas of business, three qoutes on a tendering process is a typical requirement. But in accident repair I've never heard of a damaged car being touted from garage to garage at the insurer's behest for a competitive quote. They simply go with indistry norms and published rates and only if the quote made repair uneconomic from the insurer's perspective would the question of alternative options come up.

Anyway, having politely left a message that they should simply send the estimate to the insurer I will see what they do. I suppose in theory they could stick to their guns and simply refuse to cooperate. If they refuse to send an estimate out simply because I'm calling their bluff and not giving them a penny, you will all hear about it. My guess is they will give the insurers an estimate. Maybe through me not colluding in sharp practice it will be lower than if I had? Who knows? We shall see.

[SteveG]

Pete,

Have you got the car back from the the company who have completed this estimate or have they retained it pending payment of the ?950 by yourself or your insurance company?

I can only assume the repairer felt for some reason that they had done a full survey or condition report which might be chargeable? I certainly didn't ask for one though I DID say that the reason I was bringing the car to them was because I did not trust the average body shop to know enough to do a full geometry check to eliminate any distortion resulting from the bump.

You mention about a full geometry check and I assume this would be standard for any reputable company to conduct on a classic vehicle, but you would IMO have to be careful that you haven't entered into any contract with the company. From what you have said this doesn't seem to be the case and I would agree with what others have said so far on this post. This is the first I have heard of a company charging what is essentially an exorbitant fee for an estimate and surely for that amount of money to be requested by them I think any reasonable person would be expected to have been informed 'up front' about such a charge and even been asked to sign something resembling terms and conditions or similar.
If you have taken the vehicle from the company and nothing has been said then fine, you can see if/how they choose to pursue their 'fee'. If the company will not release the car until the fee has been paid you would be well advised to seek professional advice, I am aware of people who have been threatened with theft of their own vehicle from a garage after not settling an outstanding bill.

[christopher storey]

I do not bleieve that this repairer can assert any repairer's lien over this car. They have carried out no work on the car , but merely prepared an estimate for the insurer.

[38E]

...damaged the undertray and slightly bent the support frame and bowed out a wing slightly and caused slight damage to the bulkhead around the seal channel where the bonnet jammed back against it momentarily and damaged the bonnet fit. Car has been driven straight and true for six months like this but looks a bit iffy........she is perfectly roadworthy as she stands.

Anybody else wondering how on earth this amount of damage to a car that was other than 100 point concours, and is still perfectly roadworthy, can possibly total ?25,000?

And, if the car was not immaculate, what about the insurance company coming back and claiming "betterment"?

I think that your insurance company, assuming that they specialize in classic vehicles would actually be the best source of information on customary practice, ie. number of estimates required, whether or not you'd be expected to pay for them (ha!) etc. etc. Besides, they are the one you have a contract with, not some repair outfit. I'd be inclined to tell them what's happened and ask their advice.

It would be interesting to get the estimate and post it here so we could all see where they think the money would be going.

As for getting the car back, isn't it customary (or normally required) for a vendor to get a signature on a contract if he intends to make a charge for a service? I know contracts can be verbal but they'd be awfully hard to enforce.

[PeterCrespin]

Anybody else wondering how on earth this amount of damage to a car that was other than 100 point concours, and is still perfectly roadworthy, can possibly total ?25,000?.

And, if the car was not immaculate, what about the insurance company coming back and claiming "betterment"?

Does seem odd but without seeing the estimate it is perfectly possibly they have found things I missed. We are after all coming at this fdrom opposite perspectives - I looking/hoping for minimal damage and they looking/hoping for remedial work. The assessment of roadworthiness is my own as the driver. Maybe they spotted something I didn't. That is after all precisely the reason I wanted an E-type specialist to go through the car knowledgeably, rather than Ding & Dent the crash repair brothers. Until the insurer's rep ('The Appraiser') has seen the estimate neither he nor I can check for betterment or whether the work matches either of our prior assessments.

I think that your insurance company, assuming that they specialize in classic vehicles would actually be the best source of information on customary practice, ie. number of estimates required, whether or not you'd be expected to pay for them (ha!) etc. etc. Besides, they are the one you have a contract with, not some repair outfit. I'd be inclined to tell them what's happened and ask their advice.

ts mentioned earlier in the thread, they have been in the loop and passing all plans / actions since June. They are the ones who chased the repairers recently for a quote.

It would be interesting to get the estimate and post it here so we could all see where they think the money would be going.

As for getting the car back, isn't it customary (or normally required) for a vendor to get a signature on a contract if he intends to make a charge for a service? I know contracts can be verbal but they'd be awfully hard to enforce.

Yes, assuming I get sight of it some time, I will pass on the main points, as a minimum. I am reassured by Chris's reminder that no work was ever commissioned by me, and nothing ever signed for, save delivering the car and asking for a thorough insurance repair estimate to include any potentially less-than-obvious damage from the incident.

Pete