Buying advice please

[damawe63]

Hi all,

Hoping to take the plunge and start looking for an excellent condition, ready-to-go, Series 2, FHC, RHD, manual in the new year but I have a question...

All the advice in the world from all the excellent books, internet, club members etc is never going to be a complete substitute for having a car thoroughly checked over by someone who knows what there're doing. Buying our first E type is a big step to take and we can't afford to mess this up.... so asuming I can't persuade a friendly and willing JEC/E type club member to help me out (I am hopeful though :D ), has anyone actually used one of the Buying Services offered by the clubs?

Assuming I find a car at the other end of the country, or even locally when I could attend and have an initial look, how do these services work. Has anyone a first hand experience of using such a service, how much does it cost and what do you get for your money?

It would be good to hear how others have dealt with this issue.

Thanks, Dave Webb (South coast, UK)

[Heuer]

Welcome to the Forum!

Given your location you need to start a dialogue with Harry at E Type UK based in Hadlow. Apart from the fact he sponsors the Forum he is also hugely knowledgeable and a really nice guy. Click on the E Type logo at the top left of the page to get his contact details. I am not sure if Harry offers such a service but it would be worth getting to know him for future service work and he may even be able to point you in the direction of a suitable car.

[1954Etype]

Hi all,

Hoping to take the plunge and start looking for an excellent condition, ready-to-go, Series 2, FHC, RHD, manual in the new year but I have a question...

All the advice in the world from all the excellent books, internet, club members etc is never going to be a complete substitute for having a car thoroughly checked over by someone who knows what there're doing. Buying our first E type is a big step to take and we can't afford to mess this up.... so asuming I can't persuade a friendly and willing JEC/E type club member to help me out (I am hopeful though :D ), has anyone actually used one of the Buying Services offered by the clubs?

Assuming I find a car at the other end of the country, or even locally when I could attend and have an initial look, how do these services work. Has anyone a first hand experience of using such a service, how much does it cost and what do you get for your money?

It would be good to hear how others have dealt with this issue.

Thanks, Dave Webb (South coast, UK)

Dave, I've got family living in Fareham and am down in your neck of the woods from time to time. Might be able to combine a trip if you are interested.

Angus

[damawe63]

Thanks David /Angus,

Thats good advice, I was hoping that I wouldn't necessarly have to just pay for someone to look a car over, as suggested, I'd much rather network with club members so that I can get involved in the buying process, I'm always willing to learn and help out if I can.

I wonder though if anyone has actually used the services offered by the clubs in buying a car? After reading comments on this and other forums, it seems like it would be so easy to buy a complete wreck thats been prepared for a quick sale. I guess patience is definetely a virtue when looking at cars, there are many for sale on ebay, classiccars, pistonhead etc but seperating those that are good from the rot is my mission for 2012 and i appreciate all advice.

Has anyone bought one recently with a story to tell about how it went?
Lastly, I know that most of the classic car dealers have some great cars and wonderful advice and I will have a chat with them but generally and unfortunately, we can't afford to buy from a dealer......

cheers,
dave

[christopher storey]

Dave : I am not sure which clubs you are referring to, but I do not know of any Jaguar club which offers an inspection service . However, joining a club will give you access to a good deal of free advice . If you are going to have a car inspected, however, you will need to pay someone. CMC in Bridgnorth will do it, and like a house survey, the results on even the best car will put you off for life! Colin Ford may do you an inspection , but time is at a premium for him as he works on his own. David Marks in Nottingham also probably will do a report . However, in many ways the best approach is to read as much as you can about the pitfalls of buying an E type , ( a lot of it is on this board if you can get the search function to work ) so that you can identify those cars which are an automatic reject for you, and only go in for professional inspection of one which really looks as though it might be a winner.

[PeterCrespin]

Hi all,

Hoping to take the plunge and start looking for an excellent condition, ready-to-go, Series 2, FHC, RHD, manual in the new year but I have a question.

Dave Webb (South coast, UK)

'Excellent'? 'Ready-to-go'? 'FHC'? This will not be a cheap bargain, even in S2 form. My instinct is that the real fright-pigs are near the bottom of the market. Assessing whether something is excellent, versus merely very good, is less risky than deciding if it's good enough to get the next MOT and risk taking on a bargain that turns out to be nothing but filler.

A car that fails the excellence test should not pose a mega risk of buying a disaster, it simply won't be quite good enough for what you define as excellent? I think an idea of budget will soon flesh out how realistic your excellence criterion is and we might be able to advise more specifically.

Pete

[Heuer]

Ah - sorry I thought with the description you gave budget was not an issue. If it is then you will need to most of the leg work yourself so knowledge is your best friend. Have a look at the recommended book list in the Forum Knowledge Base, in particular the one written by the previous poster Peter Crespin.



Once you locate a car post the details on the Forum and people will chip in with advice. You will probably still want a specialist report before buying though. Angus has made you that offer it would be sensible to take it up as he is one of the most knowledgeable E-Type people I know. A triple whammy when you add Peter Crespin and Christopher Storey advice to the mix!

[damawe63]

This is excellent advice guys and for which I'm very grateful, exactly the reason why I joined the JEC and E Type clubs + forums. I beleive the JEC offer an inspection service but not sure how much it would cost or if any forum / club members have used it, hence my question.

As for budget, we think we can go to about 40, which kind of fits in with the values indicated in well know classic car mags and the JEC. I'm hoping my description of 'excellent' won't be watered down too much by comments that may follow this post :D .

Angus, I'll be sure to contact you if I see a potential car and it is at all possible for you to come along, most kind (I live just outside Fareham).

I've read Peter's excellent buying book more times than I should admit to but I go back to my original point that nothing can replace the guidance a friendly informed and experienced forum/club member can offer or if I have to pay for someones time, then I was keen to make a few contacts and work out what that option may involve too.

Thanks again, if anyone else is able to post their buying expeiences, good or bad, then I would be very interested in hearing from you,

dave

[MarekH]

Dear Dave,
my advice would be to turn your approach on its head and look at as many etypes as possible, before even thinking of buying. If they are other list members cars and not "sales cars", then the owners can talk you through what are the good and bad points by reference to example. Then go look for a car which is for sale.
Bear in mind that all of these cars are forty to fifty years old and that both automotive technology and our expectations of what a car "is" is now very different from what may be available.
kind regards
Marek

[Heuer]

Someone was in the same situation as you about 18 months ago and found a really nice S2 FHC: http://tinyurl.com/6wmmb56 by being prepared to buy a car in a colour many people would overlook.

[damawe63]

Some very good points.... thank you to all who have posted. As for colour, we'd definitely consider almost anything apart from white as we both agree that we'd rather have a stronger colour, yes even sable :D

[GSR 54D]

Hi Dave

Have you experienced any other cars other than mine so far? My fellow club rep. partner in the New Forest has a series 3 FHC which I'm sure he would be happy for you to peruse over!

I can see you are chomping at the bit for January!!

Regards

John H.

[damawe63]

Hi John,
good to hear from you....
No, I've not seen any other cars other than yours (John responded to an earlier plea of mine for info and kindly spent the morning showing me his gorgeous S1 FHC and taking me for a wonderful drive around surrey - a very good day indeed, my first ride in an E type).

Maybe there are some more E type owners in the south coast area and I'd be very pleased to have a chat, I've contacted Bill on the Isle of Wight, apparently he's restored some E types so I look fwd to catching up with him.

I am keen, but will be as patient as I need to be, besides who wants to crawl under a car in the cold :D

cheers, dave

[vikla]

Dave

In response to your request for other people's buying experiences, here's mine from a few weeks ago.

I bought an E-type in early December 2011 after nearly 3 months looking and found it quite a stressful experience.
I first started by visiting a couple of classic car auctions local to where I live in Surrey to see a variety of cars and get a view about actual prices paid. You soon have to make a few decisions on your preferences: I knew the absolute top money I was prepared to pay was ?35K. I wanted a ?hobby? car, something that needed a bit of work on that I could do myself but not too onerous. Regarding models I ended up deciding that I actually prefer the look and features of the S2 cars and that a FHC was the best for me personally. On that basis my target was a ?value? car at about ?25K which I might spend an extra ?5K on.
Being an E-Type novice I read some of the ?classic? E-type books, and then Chris Rooke?s 2010 book (A Kind of Loving) on his experience of buying and restoring an E-Type ? you then realise how frightening it can be. I also knew that my price range was right in the high risk area.
I further refined my criteria that I really wanted an original RHD matching numbers car in it?s original colours, and ones that I really liked (in particular not white paint and not a black interior). After looking at various cars I also realised that I didn?t want anything needing any significant body work because I couldn?t afford it. Regarding prices I decided I was only going to pay in line with the guide prices in Classic Cars magazine, even though they are not that clear in their definitions of Good, Mint and Concours (e.g. sister mag Practical Classics uses the same figures with slightly different definitions).
Regarding prices I was extremely worried because of the huge variations around and people talking about ?they are only going up? and ?the cars are an investment? ? to me these are all signs of a market at its peak and probably due to take a fall in the near future. Certainly at auction recently the majority of cars, including E-Types, are not achieving the catalogue guide prices.
I visited a couple of specialist restorers of E-Types and XKs both offering cars for sale but it was clear their ?value? examples were ones they picked up cheap because they are in the business but they were still asking more than private sale prices. I also discovered that about half the buyers at auctions are dealers who within days are offering the cars with big mark ups. The biggest I saw was 100% - a car bought for ?27K and then re-advertised at ?55K. Typically it was ?32K then on display at ?45K. My conclusion - buying from them was a mugs game because they weren?t adding any value. I also found dealers going round buying from private sellers. I arranged to see one S2 car from eBay but a dealer got there the day before I had arranged to visit. It was advertised at ?25K and low and behold it was on the dealer?s website 10 days later at ?34K. Because it was local to me in Surrey I went to see it and found (as usual) the bodywork had various issues and there were numerous places where cheap welding repairs were evident. My conclusion was I wanted a car which I might be able to resell in the future without making a big loss. This meant in practice I had to either buy privately or at an auction.
When looking at cars I took a 2 page checklist which I had produced. I bought a cheap round LED torch with an integral rear magnet which was great for looking at cars in detail and also assessing the amount of filler on the body. Sometimes I took up to 2 hours going over a car but many a lot less because the defects were clearly obvious. It?s such a shame that most cars look pretty good in photos but can be a big disappointment after 2 minutes of viewing and after you?ve driven 90 miles to see them. I joked that buying an E-Type could be a hobby in itself ? driving around the country visiting new places and meeting interesting people.
In late November I nearly gave up altogether because finding a reasonable S2 FHC car was proving difficult and I even started thinking about a 2+2 or maybe even a S3 because they are so much cheaper and there are so many more of them around. However on 1st December I went to Bonhams auction at Brooklands to see two S1 FHCs and a S3 DHC all with estimates above my top figure. The first S1 4.2 went for ?51K with the 18% buyers premium (15%+VAT). It had bills for ?68K, didn?t even have a detailed engine bay but had an excellent body. Then a 3.8 S1 went for ?34K with premium. It was pretty unoriginal with a cheap respray.
The next day I had arranged to see a S1 4.2 2+2 followed by a S1 4.2 FHC, both private sales. The 2+2 owner was surprised when I showed him where the engine number was and that it was not an E-Type one (prefix was 8L and on the flywheel edge). I decided on the journey to the FHC car that I was going to stop searching after this one. However when I got there I found a car with super bodywork and having had plenty of other work done on it but still with lots of smaller items to attend to ? seats and console trim, engine detailing, etc. It was a now or never moment, I either bought this one or else I gave up looking at least for the time being. I have bought at least 40 cars in my life but this was by far the scariest in terms of it being the most expensive and the biggest risk. After a bit of haggling we agreed a price and that night I could hardly sleep wondering if I had done the right thing.
So I bought an S1 rather than an S2 and as a result paid more than I originally expected to. According to the guide prices a ?Good? S1 4.2 FHC car should be ?25K and a ?Mint? one ?45K, quite a difference. I paid about one third up from the Good price which I justified on the basis of the great bodywork alone. Only time will tell if it will turn out to be a good buy.
You can see my car at www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=1E21323
Some other comments:
- I inspected about 10 cars in person and evaluated others via the internet and talking to dealers and sellers on the phone and by email. On S2 cars I never saw an engine number on the block. They were all too obscured by dirt. At least on S1 cars the number is also on the cylinder head. On my car, after I purchased it, I eventually revealed the number on the block using a special long paint brush and some white spirit.
- Cars become available quite frequently from people who have had them for 25 to 35 years. They are being sold because either the owner had died or they are getting old and infirm. I saw 4 cars like this each with only 2 or 3 owners in total. However not one of them had a decent history file or were in particularly good condition.
- I monitored the availability of cars virtually every day via the internet. There are 2 main classic car web sites, then eBay and then PistonHeads. I also monitored all the auction houses, attended auctions I could get to and also monitored all the sales results. I reckon auction prices are lower in the sales away from the Home Counties so best to buy there. However the best for sale prices were the big ones on my doorstep, Historics at Brooklands and Bonhams at Mercedes Benz World. I only realised latterly that good prices can only be achieved if there at least 2 or 3 buyers there who really want a particular car ? obvious really, it?s the nature of auctions.
- Two sellers confirmed that when you are selling privately the auction houses approach you and offer a special deal of 5% fees rather than the normal 10 or 15%.
- I am guessing but I reckon the auction houses also discount the buyers fees for trade buyers. They make it clear when they recognise regular purchasers bidding.
- Selling a car privately you are unlikely to achieve the prices obtained by dealers. The most I saw a definite private sale go for was ?43K for an S2 roadster which had just completed a ?50K restoration and so probably had cost the owner about ?70K in total.

[damawe63]

That makes facinating reading and is exactly the kind of info I need, thanks so much for taking the time to write about your very recent buying experience, hope you've recovered from it now, the car looks great by the way. I'll send you a PM so hopefully we can chat off-line at some point soon ......

Covering some of your points;

Fortunately, we know exactly what car we want and how much we can afford so that removes any thoughts of - S1 (too expensive), S3 & 2+2s (too long), LHD, probably not white in colour, so this leaves S2 FHC (or 1 1/2 if not too expensive), Manual, RHD, hopefully a UK one thats been subject to a recent resto hopefully, up to ?40k (the longer models just won't fit in the garage!) and in excellent condition (is this realsitic?). I don't have a workshop and so what we buy will have to be pretty much how it will stay apart from dealing with minor cosmetics, maintenance, problems etc.

It seems from what you've witnessed that trying to buy from a dealer for a mid-priced car is not a great idea at all and that there would be no advantage in doing so as the extra cost is just pure profit to them. I'm not sure about auctions as never been to one and it sounds that you really need to know what you're doing here and spending so much money without doing a proper inspection would cause me too much stress in case I got it wrong.

I have another plan though, I'll still look through the normal eBay, Pistonheads , forums, mags etc for cars for sale, just in case I get lucky but I'm also going to put some Wanted ads out soon so that maybe I could get the first look at a car and therefore won't be in competition with the trade buyers. This approach has worked well for me in the past (allbeit for classic 70's japanese motorcycles). It seems from what you're saying that having first refusal on a car may be quite a good move as you never know when someone may decide to sell their car and not being in competition with other buyers seems like quite an advantage to me.

Of course buying private is going to be tough but hopefully with the kind help and priceless advice that has been offered on this forum by some of the knowlegeable ones, this will help no end. It's very much appreciated....

I hope in a few months time I'll be able to post a message here that we've bought a car as nice as the one you have just bought but patience in this case is very much a virtue and I'll have to be just that.

regards, dave

[vikla]

Dave

Interesting that you have similar thoughts to me. I also didn't want a longer car because of the 'standard' british garage size.

Regarding S2 FHCs I came across 2 restored ones being sold privately. One was in Carlisle and is probably still available. Unfortunately it is White but been fully restored and ticks all the boxes. The owner is a great guy and I had email chats with him. He is asking ?35k and would accept ?32.5K.
The other car was red and in Cheltenham, also priced at ?35K and having been restored. However I think it was an import converted.

I came to the conclusion that buying at auction wasn't that much bigger risk than privately or even from a lot of the trade guys. It does seem to me that any budget has to allow for quite a few thousand of extra spending in the near future regardless of how good the car seems.

Overall I'm sure at your budget level you should be able to get an excellent S2 FHC.

Steve

[johnben]

Hi Dave

Seems like you have received a lot of good advice already. I live on Hayling Island so if you want to pop down and discuss my experiences you are welcome, I am no expert but have been round the block a few times. I have a Ser 1 2 + 2 which is not what you want but all the important bits are common to all models.

Regards

John

[damawe63]

Thanks very much for the invite John, I'd be very happy to pop over to Hayling in the NY and hear about your experiences and look at your car. I'll send you a PM with my contact details, cheers and HNY to you and all other folk on the forum, their advice has been invaluable.

dave

[MartinA]

Dave,
Looks like you have had some great advice. I am sure most of us have been through the same process at some stage...one approach which I do next time around (on S2 OTS number 2) is to take Phillip Porter's advice from his buying guide. he recommends buying the worst car you can find and completely restoring it so you know in the end what you have. I would not go for the worst car I could find, but there is a lot to be said to taking the car back to a bare tub, getting all the metal work sorted, refurbishing all the mechanicals etc. The only issue is the potential cost as it can work out very expensive depending on who you get to do the work. Anyway, food for thought...
Martin

[1954Etype]

Martin, that might have been a good option a few years ago but I definately would not recommend it now! You will pay a lot of money for a rotten car and lose another small fortune restoring it. Unless you are looking for a serious 100 pt concours car, going the route of finding a basket case with provenance is the way to go. For the rest of us, buy the best you can - a long MOT would be important for any car I was buying now.