The 'E' Type Forum

Hi,

I have loved E Types since I was a kid and I am in the market for buying a great one. I have found this one online which I am going to see this week:

http://WWW.LAWTONBROOK.CO.UK/usedcar/CL ... _/18135683

I understand its a Vicarage conversion done in 1990 (converted from LHD to RHD and other bits).

Being a novice, I was hoping for some advice on if this was a good car to buy (assuming the condition is good). It seems that it a more modern take on the original and that works fine with me (my wife likes the seat belts etc)

The asking price of ?50K seems high when E Types start from ?20K but is that because its a vicarage or some other reason or are they asking twice whats its worth.

I would be most grateful for any advice[/youtube]

Hi, do you know why they say it's a 1960 model series III V12? That model came in 1971. Maybe it's a typo?
And do you know why it's a 2+2? I don't think they made 2+2 as a convertible model, only as a coupe. Is this a Vicarage modification? But I guess some of the other experts here will post some more detailed information later...

Jon

Hello,
where does the Vicarage thing come from? In the description I couldn?t find a hint to that. To me it looks like a "normal" Series III roadster, what?s good, but check the vin, maybe it began its life as a coupe. It is never a 1960, first e-type was in 1961, and series III started in the 70-ties, that?s why you might see it as more modern.
Pricewise GBP 50K is not unusual for a well mantained series III roadster, at least not here on the continent. Prices can go a lot higher, specially for the more sought after series I models. But that?s a matter of personal taste. Check the bodywork in detail, take an expert with you and don?t get talked into something by that dealer. That is the only classic car he has to offer, so I doubt that he really knows a lot about e-types and their specifics, but I may not be right on that one.
Before buying I woulkd suggest to buy some books, read through, get some knowledge yourself and look at different cars in different price levels, to make your own picture.
All the best and have fun looking for the right car for you
Peter

Price is way over the top these days. The market in V12s is a very thin one in any event, and the real killer on this car is the fact that it is automatic which means that it will not be very exciting to drive and fuel consumption will not be much better than 11 or 12 mpg . It is also in a non-Jaguar colour and the interior colour is, to my eyes, hideous . Then there is the mysterious "conversion" . LHD to RHD only drops the value by perhaps 10%, but if it is a cut-down from a 2+2 then its value drops significantly . You need to make rigorous enquiries , particularly as to chassis number, and personally speaking i would not be thinking of much more than about ?35,000 for this car, and I have a feeling I am being generous at that level

Hi,

Like others, I do wonder where the "Vicarage" tag comes from, did the current sellers mention it in a phone call? However, Vicarage are still in business and it would be easy to contact them and check up on the cars? history. The company made a good reputation out of modified Jaguars when the market was a bit crazy in the 1980s. These cars included updated Mk IIs and even a convertible version. I know this is not to the taste of all, but, I visited the company, just North of Wolverhampton, several times prior to leaving first the Midlands, then the UK and can say that the team were very knowledgeable, very helpful and had some beautiful cars, original and modified. They also did not turn up their noses at my home restoration and provided some hard to get parts at excellent value, including the very difficult to locate V12 fuel pipe system.

I seem to remember a 2+2 conversion being offered by Vicarage for the V12 convertible, which at least has the wheelbase to make it vaguely practical. As to the comments about exterior colour, I agree it is not an original colour, but that is personal taste, far more important to me is whether you like it, whether it is well done and whether you are bothered about originality. Many cars are fitted with 5-speed boxes, brake upgrades, suspension upgrades etc. and I know these can be returned to original, but do you really expect the owners to hang on the original components and pass them on if they sell the car? If they don?t, it won?t take long for the cost of returning the car to original to mount up to a similar cost to that of a respray to an original colour, especially if the bodywork is in good condition to begin with. Another relevant comment is that although Jaguar did offer a range of colours, they also stated that they could paint it any colour the customer wanted if required ? the main issue here is that that shade of blue may not really have existed in 1973 ? which I note has been revised as the age of the car ? much more realistic than the earlier and impossible 1960.

The 4-branch exhaust outlet is probably not standard ? apart from being stainless (probably a desirable upgrade), it should be a two branch exhaust outlet for a 1973 car (unless it was an old-stock car), but what the hell, buying a V12 E-type, you might as well have all the extrovert features!

Visible in the pictures is a rear seat, definitely not an original feature ? it would be worth checking that the V5 of the car is updated to reflect this, also that insurance quotes will not be affected by this feature adversely. As to the original interior colour being ?hideous?, I don?t agree, I like it and furthermore I think it is actually an original colour, I forget what it is called but it is a 1970s colour ? not a 1960s tone!

Now, automatic transmission. Yes, it probably does reduce fuel consumption considerably, but if you can afford to spend 50 grand on a luxury classic car, well does it matter what you spend on petrol, how many miles will you do a year anyway? Of course I realise some drive many annual miles, but be honest with yourself as to how much time you can and will spend driving the car. If mpg is important, you may have to consider another car or a manual conversion. To me, mpg did matter, so I converted to 5-speed manual, but then I am a pauper and spent nothing like 50 grand on my car, probably much closer to 15 grand and I moved to Australia because the petrol is cheaper (!). However, the V12 is definitely a cruiser, not a racer, (unless you make some serious modifications) so the question is do you want a sports car or a tourer. The auto suits the later cars rather well, once the car is warm.

For a sports car, buy an earlier six cylinder car, for the ultimate tourer, buy the Series 3 and once you are moving, the auto won?t make much difference ? the car doesn?t need many gear changes anyway! By the way, one of the main reasons for poor mpg on the V12 with Strombergs, is the poor inlet tract, fine when the engine is warm and fuel vaporisation is easy to achieve, but hopeless on choke when the fuel condenses on the convoluted inlet manifold walls, so you have to enrich it to a high degree to get the engine to self-sustaining revs and smooth performance. The car was actually supposed to be injected, but a last minute decision by the injection fuel system specialists to pull out left Jaguar with the only option being four Stromberg carbs instead. So, if your average drive is reasonably long and not on city streets, the fuel economy improves dramatically, if you drive daily three miles to work and back in traffic jams, then the mpg will be parlous.

Sorry to go on so, but in defence of the Series 3, I will go a long way and I think the cars are under appreciated compared to the six cylinder cars. I was an early car fan and bought a Series 3 2+2 more because I found one at a price I could afford(very cheap - even for a wreck like mine). Now I love it to bits.

The Series 3 OTS is rising in price quickly, leaving my poor 2+2 far behind! Funny that modifications to the six cylinder car seem to increase the value, but not that of the equally popular V12 OTS! Vicarage have a great reputation, even if not so well-known as, say CMC. Also, the owner of the company (Malcolm?)won some very prestigious concours competitions with Series 3 OTS cars, so he knows what he is talking about. I think 50 grand is probably not far off right for a car like this, if in great condition, but it needs research and verification ? contact Vicarage and ask if they know the car and it?s current condition. I believe the work involved in it?s restoration and modification will have cost well in excess of that figure originally.

Regards,

Simon

This one would be a better bet for around the same money: http://tinyurl.com/cobyozs

or even this one: http://tinyurl.com/cnrsdrk

You need to go and look at half a dozen or so and you will then get a feel for what is right.

Hi,

First of all, a massive thank you to all that gave such great advice. Now, I have to admit of being the compulsive type and I did buy the car (Sorry, sorry... I let my heart rule my head!).

So the story of this car:

I googled the number plate last night and could see an auction in 2007 for the vehicle listing it as a 1973 (reg was then EAW 678L) and in 1990 it was converted/rebuilt/bastardised by vicarage for ?103K inc VAT and on completion it had a plate change to "XSU 153" link:

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/1 ... 3e75gw4jzw

This morning, I drove down to the company selling it and spent the first 30 mins looking at all the paperwork to get the timelines right in my head (given all the confusion on the 1960 can't be as its a 1970's model). The DVLA forms all tallied with the VIN/Chasis/Frame and engine number. (all the paperwork had the same details for VIN & Engine etc.) Also on the DVLA is the class of "Historic Vehicle" and declared manufacture date of 1960 (how can this be??). I saw nothing before 1973 on the paperwork but it is registered as declared manufactured in 1960!!I saw in detail all the 1990 Vicarage invoices, contract, and schedule It listed things like the new back seats, RHD conversion and a big long list of other stuff. Also lots of bills since, and all the MOT's etc.

The Car: Well, it looked like a beauty to me and my untrained eye, however, with your words of caution ringing in my ears, I looked at everything I could (all the panels, and underneath, Chassis, and engine bay and was happy to find there was one), I could see 3 points on the car body that needed attention (1 Bonnet near side lower section behind the front wheel had 6 inches of bubbles, 2: the rear boot had a 1 Cm section of laquer missing & 3: the back where the solid roof sits on the body, I could see some scuff marks.) otherwise, she looked good to me. I would say it was an 8 out of 10. On the test drive, I noticed that the car (just started) was sluggish to pull away but this disappeared after a few mins when the engine got warm. Basically, I loved the feeling of driving this car. As for the Auto, thats want I want as I am a cruiser not a racer, the hideous interior is well matched to the new hideous owner, so no problem there!

You guys were all correct in your assumption that this garage is not a E Type specialist which was demonstrated when opening the bonnet as scratching heads eventually worked it out. They sell flash modern motors normally and tell me they are selling on behalf of a local person.(that checked out in the current ownership V5). So, I believed a couple of things at the end of this. I Liked the car and I thought it was a genuine (if complicated) vehicle. I also like the fact that it had major work 20 years ago as that seemed like a quality job by a reputable company. I am not a "provenance first" guy, much more a suit my own taste so I did the deal and asked for the small body work issues to be fixed, a new MOT to be done and we agreed the sale. The body shop doing the work are round the corner and I saw examples of there work on other cars (looked great to me). So as for the price, I wasn't as fussed because I am lucky enough to be able to afford it (sold my 17 year old company I built up 18 months ago). Told the insurance company everything as above and they have agreed to insure it (?300 for 3,000 miles per year). Its also a road tax exempt vehicle because of this weird 1960 declared manufacture date. Now what I need mostly is to find out which of you can become my new pal and help me find someone good to fix anything that goes wrong!

Thanks to all, what a great forum!

Regards

Malcolm

Congratulations Malcolm! If you have found a car that fits your needs then you will have no argument from us and you have the whole summer ahead to go out and enjoy it. As regards maintenance, where are you located so we can suggest people we know? Incidentally I believe CMC at Bridgenorth took over from Vicarage so it may be worth giving them a call to see if they know anything about the car. They are also one of the top E-Type restorers in the country so maybe you should take it there for maintenance.

David,

Cheers, I live in Northampton. This 1960 thing is the only reservation I really have, any ideas?

Regards

Malcolm

There are two dates on the V5 you need to be aware of - 'date of first (UK) registration' and 'declared date of manufacture'. The former is likely to be later than 1973 if the car was imported back to the UK and converted to RHD but the former should be spot on. Probably a typo when the declaration was made. You could get the DVLA to change it but this may mean it no longer qualifies for being tax exempt and you will have to put those less than classy white number plates on the nose, and yellow on the rear. Personally I would let sleeping dogs lie, take advantage of the mistake get a nice black/silver plate made up by Tippers http://www.tippersvintageplates.co.uk/ and forget about it. Trying to get it changed by the DVLA will be a nightmare! Leave it for the next owner.

Incidentally here is its entry on XKEdata: http://www.xkedata.com/cars/detail/?car=UD1S74551BW

"Auction description:
Sale 14267 - Important Collectors' Motor Cars and Fine Automobilia, 4 Dec 2006
Olympia, London
Lot No: 674
1973 Jaguar E-Type Series III V12 Vicarage Roadster
Registration no. XSU 153
Chassis no. UD1S74551BW
Engine no. 7510310LA
Sold for ?21,000 plus Premium and tax

Originally a left-hand drive Coup?, this Series III E-Type Roadster was totally rebuilt and upgraded by Vicarage to the vendor?s personal order in 1990. At that time the list price for Vicarage?s ?Standard Specification? Series III Roadster was ?85,000, which included wire wheels, mohair hood, tinted glass, head restraints, stainless-steel exhaust system, Michelin XWX tyres and conversion to right-hand drive, while options specified ? air conditioning, Alpine CD stereo system and two-passenger rear seating ? added a further ?6,500 to this car?s price for a grand total of ?91,500 (ex-VAT). Finished in Rolls-Royce Cobalt Blue metallic with beige leather interior, the car has the popular automatic transmission option and comes with soft-top and factory hardtop. Further specification highlights include central locking, remote alarm and a new leather interior, the latter installed within the past two years. Some 31,500-or-so miles have been covered since completion and the car comes with full service history with Vicarage and marque specialist Martin Hall (Bird?s Automobiles). Fastidiously maintained with no expense spared and offered for sale at a fraction of its build costs, this unique Series III E-Type Roadster possesses an MoT valid until June 2007 and comes with Swansea V5."

Malcolm,
you are my man! That?s what I call "having balls". Wish you all the best and tons of fun with your new toy.
Why worry about the 1960? Can?t you just correct the V5C according to a heritage certificate, that you can get from Jaguar? There you have date of manufacture etc. and this shall not infuenece tax exemption, as far as I know, but I?m not from the UK.
So enjoy live!
Peter

Oops, just saw Heuers reply, so it has an influence in the UK, would not be the case here in Germany. Historical registration is for all cars older than 30 years and it a defined, reserved state.
Sorry.... .
Peter

Peter

It causes a lot of trouble over here. When the Government first set the classic car cut-off date at 1 January 1973 it was expected it would be periodically reviewed and the date moved forwards to allow emerging classics to be included. For example the 1973 Porsche 911RS, one of the greatest cars of all time is not deemed to be 'historic' but a bog standard Ford Cortina Mk II 1300 is If Martin does choose to challenge the V5 he will have to go through so much red tape it will be untrue and if there is anything amiss he could be liable for all sorts of penalties including having the car confiscated. Trouble is you never know what was or was not declared when it was imported - can of worms in my view with no obvious gain in pursuing it.

merailson wrote:David,
Cheers, I live in Northampton. This 1960 thing is the only reservation I really have, any ideas?

Regards
Malcolm

Ideas? Yes, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you about the screamingly obvious registration falsehood that predates all E-types, let alone V12s. It could conceivably cost you back tax from the present time to whenever the DVLA twig you've been avoiding it illegally. Not your fault of course, but you are the one left holding the parcel when the music stops if you didn't at least beat them down a long way for this non-tax-free status and a car with significant rust......

Depending on your attitude to risk (and at least the offence doesn't carry points) I would be wary of putting black plates on it. Realistically, your chances of being stopped are very low, but in your shoes with a terribly iffy paper trail I would do everything I possibly could to stay below Plod's radar. Traffic Division bobbies are pretty knowledgeable and if one stopped you for a chat and you tried telling him your car was 1960 it could open a rather unpleasant can of worms...

If you're in a position to pay fifty grand for an automatic 2+2 chop job then fine, just enjoy the car. Contrary to received wisdom, autos often do slightly better than manuals wafting around town because the revs rarely go above 2000 but they do suffer slightly during spirited open road driving. However, since your total mileage is going to be low and money is no object, just pour in the petrol and watch the smiles come out all over. I got a best-ever 16-17 mpg on Austrian autobahns with the top up and a worst-ever 11 mpg on UK twisties with it down. It was worth every penny ob both occasions.

My automatic S3 OTS was the only two-door Jag I've ever had that I didn't mind being automatic. It's still responsive and a great drive behind that lusty engine. Have fun.

Pete

PeterCrespin wrote: Depending on your attitude to risk (and at least the offence doesn't carry points) I would be wary of putting black plates on it. Realistically, your chances of being stopped are very low, but in your shoes with a terribly iffy paper trail I would do everything I possibly could to stay below Plod's radar. Traffic Division bobbies are pretty knowledgeable and if one stopped you for a chat and you tried telling him your car was 1960 it could open a rather unpleasant can of worms...
Pete

You tell Plod it is a 1971 V12 so entitled to black plates Strange no one else has picked the anomaly up though. As Pete says, best keep your head down and not discuss it with DVLA although you may want to discuss it with the vendor ...... at length!

Yup, time was that would have done the job. These days, he knows it is listed as a 1960 before he stops you... and that's without ANPR.

OK, Thanks again All.

I will check everything out and make sure I am legal and not upsetting Mr Plod who is already upset today with his 20% pay cut! From what I can see so far (before I call Vicarage, sellers & Jag this week) the MOT testing station is responsible for checking number plate spacing colours and validity and given I saw about 20 of them at different places, I think it could all be right after all.

My Wife has now banned me from forums! She has just called me an E Type geek without an E Type yet!

All the best to all of you

Regards

Malcolm

Insist the vendor deals with the V5 issue before transferring the car into your name so you have no liability. As for you being a banned E-Type geek - you will be back, oh yes, you will be back!

The man to talk to at CMC in Bridgnorth is Nick Goldthorp , who was a director of Vicarage from its inception, and who will almost certainly remember this car

Everybody has different priorities for their classic car ownership proposition. Some people are sticklers for every grommet, wiper blade insert and hose clip brand to be one hundred percent correct or know their lives will instantly be ruined. Some will find themeselves 'boo-hooing' increasingly loudly for every extra mile accruing on the odometer as it destroys literally one millionth of a micron from a big end shell. Earth shattering. Others, convinced their particular hue of leather/paint combination is unrivalled, will take great delight in dowsing the warming fire flames of your (whipser it) 'unoriginal' paint scheme, with their bitter and accrid urine. Or, you may be a professional restorer proudly exhibiting the results of your labours, only to have your work criticised by someone who (although has very rarely gone near a spanner) feels fully justified because they are wearing shiny overalls and have read Gordon Bligworth's manual on 'Gudgeon Pin Recognition for Professionals'. The there are those who have genuine appreciation of your chariot, irrespective of its originality and how you choose to enjoy it. They will help you in any way they can, often showing quite extraordinary generousity. Luckily, these people are the majority.

Having been around and worked in the classic car industry for the larger percentage of my working life, I have encountered all of these types at certain times. If you buy a classic and immerse yourself in the scene, you will no doubt meet them too. If your priority is to make money from buying this particular car, walk away now. If you are concerned about regstration complications or ultimate originality, again get a stroll on. My personal opinion is that if your vehicle has undergone a documented, photographic and professional restoration and is structurally, mechanically and cosmetically sound, it's worthy of consideration. The people who will admire and make you feel good about this car will always outweight the minority who will want to spoil your enjoyment of owning it.