E Type ID's......

[Kent Thirley]

Is the sale of an ID for a car illegal or just frowned upon by people who think the practise is fraudulent?
I only ask after posting an advert for same on the Forum recently. I was genuinely helping out a pal who has an ID, but no car.
I have seen wanted & For Sale adverts on the Forum of both Body shells being offered for sale with no ID & members looking for ID's, even V5's!
I would be interested to know members opinions or experiences in the matter?

[1954Etype]

Hi Kent. I don't know if the practice is illegal (suspect it is as it could be construed that you are attempting to deceive by allowing someone to construct a car from parts and then sell it on as the original). The DVLA had (or may still have) a formula that determined if a car was original or not. Points would be awarded for things like orjginal engine, chassis, body etc. If you amassed enough points, you got an age related plate. If not, you got a Q plate.

I fully accept and understand you are not trying to deceive in this case. It is important that this forum maintains the utmost integrity as E Type UK host us and they would not want to be associated with any activity that was not completely above board.

Hope this clarifies and please, please keep on contributing!

Angus

[Heuer]

Kent

Body shells without ID's are frequently bought to convert into racers or to repair same. As Angus points out there is a DVLA formula for working out how a rebuilt car can be re-registered and this causes no end of problems in the world of Lotus Elan's. The space frame chassis rots and replacements are readily available from Lotus and Spyder Engineering but doing so falls foul of the DVLA regs. The perceived wisdom is "don't tell them"! The whole issue of original chassis numbers has caused great debate in the Classic Car world especially with high value models such as D-Type's and various Ferrari's where there can be two cars claiming the same identity. In your case I fully understand you are not out to defraud anyone and this is not a particularly rare model. Equally there are many E-Type's on the road which do not have their original engine, gearbox, diff and the amount of Jaguar metal in the bodywork could be marginal yet these cars claim to be 'original'.

There is no legal reason you cannot offer the ID plate and supporting documentation for sale and the buyer putting it on a 2+2 shell and 'building' a car. If they were to follow the Lotus doctrine the car could be registered and sold as a genuine E-Type 2+2 which would give subsequent owners many years of enjoyment. However, as Angus points out, we need to protect the integrity of both the Forum and the reputation of our hosts E Type UK. It would be easy for rumour and gossip to start circulating about their business practices based on just one post here.

If you are going to offer this ID for sale you need to find another place to vend it. Your contributions to the Forum are valued so please don't think we are dismissing you in any way and thank you for opening this debate so we can air the issue.

[christopher storey]

There is no legal reason you cannot offer the ID plate and supporting documentation for sale and the buyer putting it on a 2+2 shell and 'building' a car. If they were to follow the Lotus doctrine the car could be registered and sold as a genuine E-Type 2+2 which would give subsequent owners many years of enjoyment.

I am sorry, David, but I do not agree. This is precisely what the car ringers do . It is highly illegal to apply the identity of a car which no longer exists in any form, to another car , thus representing the "new" car as being the old one. The use of ID in this way facilitates the passing off of a stolen car as one which is legitimate

[Kent Thirley]

David 'Heuer', I thank you for your sensible comments to my post. They were both refreshing & constructive. Other comments about 'ringers' & Stolen cars are a little over the top I feel. I think an apology for original comments about my advert would be well received from other contributors to this post.
Thank you
Kent Thirley

[Heuer]

Christopher

You definitely know more than me on the legal aspects of these things but I can't find any specific legislation that a) prevents the sale of a car ID and b) prevents the purchaser with 'reuniting' said ID with the appropriate metal work, leaving moral aspects to one side for a moment. Any further information?

Kent

I don't think apologies are necessary, besides you opened the debate. Christopher is one of the Forum's most respected members and when he says something it is, in my experience, always best to listen. Question yes, but listen.

[MarkE]

It is currently illegal to use a 2nd hand bodyshell to re-shell another car, and use the identity of either of the original cars to register the completed car. You can use a 2nd hand shell to rebuild a car, but the completed car will be issued with a ?Q? plate.

The purpose of this regulation was to make ringing or cloning a lot more difficult. It was never intended to stop enthusiasts with, say, a rusty E Type from re-shelling it with a rust-free shell.

The Federation of Classic Car Clubs is trying to get things changed, whereby an individual, with a valid title to the rust-free shell and the original car can legitimately do the swap and retain the ID of the original car. This would, in practise, be no different to a car requiring a new shell when it was a current car, and the new shell was obtainable from the original manufacturer.

However, this doesn?t cover JUST an ID. It is hard to imagine why a legitimate car doesn?t have an ID, or can?t be awarded an ID from its chassis number. The only reasons I can think of where an E Type ID may have a value are:

1) For converting an S1 or S2 FHC into an OTS, and buying an OTS ID to pass off the converted FHC as an OTS. However, whist this may have been profitable in the past, there is only a small difference in the values of the two types of car, and the cost of doing the modification would outweigh the profit that could be made.

2) For converting an S3 Plus 2 to into an OTS and buying an OTS ID to pass off the converted Plus 2 as an OTS. This would still be worth while, but not to a great extent and the conversion cost would be quite high.

3) To give a collection of non-associated and potentially stolen parts a ?legitimate? identification in order to increase their value.

All three of these cases are activities of fraud.

VOSA and the police are very aware of all the potentials of fraud from ID switches, and actively chase up ID sales, particularly on eBay. They won?t pounce straight away, but rather would wait to build up evidence and see what the buyer is using the ID for, then move in to make polite enquiries with both the seller, his mates down the pub, and the buyer.

Definitely something to be avoided!

[christopher storey]

Kent : it was not my intention to offend you , and it is clear that you had no idea what sort of minefield you were stepping into . I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, but I felt it was better to do that than for you to find yourself having uncomfortable interviews with the fuzz

[Kent Thirley]

Christopher, I thank you for your message.

Kent

[Heuer]

So offering an ID, to which you have legal title, for sale is legal? Lets say I bought this and decided the restoration costs outweighed the value:



I sell the engine, gearbox, IRS, bonnet, doors, boot lid and other sundry items on eBay. The frames are shot so I decide the body shell and ID may have value and offer it for sale. Before doing so I cut off all the remaining metal up to the bulkhead. I have title so is it legal for me to sell it on? Buyer then asks if I can just send him the ID plate and supporting documents as he does not want to bulkhead - still legal? Seems to me the selling of the ID plate, if only as a curio, is completely legal but what happens to it after that becomes the tangle.

If I decide to 'restore' my wreck rather than parting it out at what point do my efforts attract the attention of VOSA? I can buy a new and complete E-Type body shell or even a Lightweight or Lindner copy and move all the parts across. Highly respected specialists openly admit they use only the original bulkhead for many of their restorations. And in the case of the Lotus Elan VOSA say the ID remains with the chassis so those that have them replaced (basically all of them ) should possibly be running on Q plates.

[Heuer]

A bit of research answers my own questions:

Registering a rebuilt vehicle, kit car and kit conversion
If you are rebuilding a vehicle, or building a vehicle from a kit or kit conversion, it will need to meet certain criteria before the vehicle can be registered. The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) local office will assign the original or an appropriate registration mark on the evidence provided:

Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new or used parts

In order to retain the original registration mark: Cars and car-derived vans must use the original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt). And two other major components from the original vehicle - ie suspension (front & back); steering assembly; axles (both); transmission or engine. If a second-hand chassis or monocoque bodyshell is used, the vehicle must pass a an enhanced single vehicle approval (ESVA) or single vehicle approval (SVA) test after which a "Q" prefix registration number will be allocated.

More detail: http://tinyurl.com/3f6p992

So there is no reason you cannot sell a vehicle ID, the onus will be on the buyer as to how it will be presented if they want to retain the registration number.

[MarkE]

I think that's correct, David. The questions arrise only to determine how the seller acquired the ID to sell, and what the buyer is going to use the ID for.

It's a particularly sticky subject with Lotus Cortinas (now hit ?80k for a perfect standard road car), sporty Escorts, 26R Elans and Mini Cooper S cars....anything that looks similar to its 'standard' sibbling, and can fairly simply be cloned. An original Lotus 7 is now a rare and desirable car, whereas a new Caterham rolling shell can be bought for peanuts.

An interesting consideration however, could be an extensively restored E Type. If it had previously lost its original engine, and the bodyshell was restored with repro panels just using the bulkhead, which isn't too rare, can that car use it's original ID?

Probably only because of the liberal VOSA view, but I wouldn't want to put it to the test by telling them exactly what remains of the original car!

I know of quite a few 'original RHD' E Types that acquired a rust-free bodyshell in the 80s /90s, and was offered an ID for mine shortly after buying it. I felt then, and now, that folks are more likely to believe that the car is an original Californian car that has never been welded, that an original UK car with all its original panels!

[Heuer]

I see this ID has just been sold on eBay for ?5,850: http://tinyurl.com/bpvqq9m

"You are bidding for an identity for a 1963 E-Type jaguar convertible LHD. With the identity is a Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust Certificate, Body Tag, Engine and Gearbox, all matching numbers and also the certaintity that the Picture frame from the original car does not exist. Also included are letters from HMR+C showing that VAT and Duty have been paid on the car"

[Kent Thirley]

mmmmmmm..........Interesting!!

I see this ID has just been sold on eBay for ?5,850: http://tinyurl.com/bpvqq9m

"You are bidding for an identity for a 1963 E-Type jaguar convertible LHD. With the identity is a Jaguar Daimler Heritage Trust Certificate, Body Tag, Engine and Gearbox, all matching numbers and also the certaintity that the Picture frame from the original car does not exist. Also included are letters from HMR+C showing that VAT and Duty have been paid on the car"

[wagstefan]

From my perspective, if the matching number engine and gearbox comes with the ID, this is more than sufficient to justify a rebuild of a car.

And the price wasn't too high.

However I understand the problem with potentially cloning a car, which need to be avoided under all circumstances. Nevertheless, many E-Types received totally new body shells incl. bulkhead. So the question is, where is the difference?