The 'E' Type Forum

Hi all, im new to the forum. my names Steve, im 22 from kent, recently purchased an e type shell with a load of spares for a long term project to do for fun.
i love metal work and im lucky enough to have all the skills needed as im more than handy with a tig and mig welder and have recently finished another car to show winning mag featured standard.

The shell i bought came with no ID and im not keen to have to Q plate the car so im looking to try get a firm fix on the age of the car before then exploring options to get the car on a age related plate, i also need a age as im going to be buying a lot of bits any dont want them not to fit.

i have a few pics, if anyone could let me know any tell tale signs that narrow down its age it would be appreciated.






i am under the understanding it is a series 2 2+2


thanks in advance,

Steve

I am assuming that there is no V35.

Do you have the engine frames?

Otherwise can you see any crayon markings on the inside bulkhead or rear door? The factory often did this to keep body panels of each car together.

Steve, I believe that you can only get an age related plate for a car with an ID...so you will need a chassis number.

As Chris mentioned this is stamped onto the 'picture frame', i.e., the front piece of the engine / suspension frames. Of course, it's also on the chassis plate, which I guess you don't have. There is one more tag, a body number, which is usually pop-riveted onto the panel underneath the rear numberplate.

If you can't find that, then the simplest option is to find a rotted out car of similar age (which I guess is why you're asking about the age of the shell) and combine the best of the two sets of bits. Technically, if you use the shell you have you can't take the ID of the rotted out car. But if you were to use the shell you have to repair the rotted out car, then that would be OK. There is a very fine line here of what is legal and what is not!

You should also consider the economics of what you are doing. Just because you may have paid very little for the shell and the bits you have, it wil still cost many thousand of pounds to get all the right parts, restore them, and put the car on the road.....probably a lot more that a good S2 2+2 would cost in the first place.

I'm not saying don't do it, but if you haven't added up the cost of putting the car back on the road, it would be a worthwhile exercise to do!

Hi you may like to pm me for some info that may help you !

Steve,
There seems to be a riveted aluminium id plate on the bulkhead, left side, close to where the electrical wires are emerging.
Wishing much courage and luck in your project!

Nope, that's just a compliance plate on the vertical face. On an S2 the big plate would be horizontal underneath it. The car is a 1970-71 RHD manual 2+2.

It has the late upper front bulkhead like the S3, whereas both my 69s had/have the earlier S1 style, but it could be a late 69 I suppose.

If so, if you don't even have a body tag around the back numberplate area, this might be a suitable ID. It might even be the one from that shell - stranger things have happened and he steadfastly refuses to say what model it is from, which means it's 2+2 I bet or he'd shout the higher value model from the rooftop. The lister's antics do not inspire confidence but if you had the money it would presumably avoid a Q plate at least, if you were able to check with the DVLA beforehand... It is very expensive, but not as expensive as an unregisterable car... Proceed with great caution.

eBay item 181039518691

ChrisC wrote:I am assuming that there is no V35.

Do you have the engine frames?

Otherwise can you see any crayon markings on the inside bulkhead or rear door? The factory often did this to keep body panels of each car together.

Hi, I have the engine frames but there are no markings on them not even on the picture frame part between the engine frames and front frame. i will check for the crayon markings, thanks

MarkE wrote:Steve, I believe that you can only get an age related plate for a car with an ID...so you will need a chassis number.

As Chris mentioned this is stamped onto the 'picture frame', i.e., the front piece of the engine / suspension frames. Of course, it's also on the chassis plate, which I guess you don't have. There is one more tag, a body number, which is usually pop-riveted onto the panel underneath the rear numberplate.

If you can't find that, then the simplest option is to find a rotted out car of similar age (which I guess is why you're asking about the age of the shell) and combine the best of the two sets of bits. Technically, if you use the shell you have you can't take the ID of the rotted out car. But if you were to use the shell you have to repair the rotted out car, then that would be OK. There is a very fine line here of what is legal and what is not!

You should also consider the economics of what you are doing. Just because you may have paid very little for the shell and the bits you have, it wil still cost many thousand of pounds to get all the right parts, restore them, and put the car on the road.....probably a lot more that a good S2 2+2 would cost in the first place.

I'm not saying don't do it, but if you haven't added up the cost of putting the car back on the road, it would be a worthwhile exercise to do!

Hi thanks for your response, i will check all the places you mention for the chassis number, i suspect they have all been removed a long time ago for a kit car or something. I know what you mean about getting ID for it, im sure i will find a way of resolving it. It wouldnt be right to spend so much time and money getting the car finished OEM just to have it on a Q plate.

I understand the economics of what im doing, half the reason im doing it is to own an e type the other half is for the restoration project

tinworm wrote:Hi you may like to pm me for some info that may help you !

Hi, will do!

ralphr1780 wrote:Steve,
There seems to be a riveted aluminium id plate on the bulkhead, left side, close to where the electrical wires are emerging.
Wishing much courage and luck in your project!

Hi i can see where it has been taken off :(

PeterCrespin wrote:It has the late upper front bulkhead like the S3, whereas both my 69s had/have the earlier S1 style, but it could be a late 69 I suppose.

If so, if you don't even have a body tag around the back numberplate area, this might be a suitable ID. It might even be the one from that shell - stranger things have happened and he steadfastly refuses to say what model it is from, which means it's 2+2 I bet or he'd shout the higher value model from the rooftop. The lister's antics do not inspire confidence but if you had the money it would presumably avoid a Q plate at least, if you were able to check with the DVLA beforehand... It is very expensive, but not as expensive as an unregisterable car... Proceed with great caution.

eBay item 181039518691

Hi Peter, the info you have given me is very useful, i saw your posts on other threads and hoped you would pop up! iv seen this seller and spoken to him and hes very cagey

Peter i dont suppose you would be able to confirm this car will need a 50" IRS not the 54" version?

also this will need a 4.2 with an engine code beginning 7R xxxx?

On closer look, given the missing bits and pieces, seems to me obvious that the original title of this shell (surely a LHD, US import delivered in a 20' container) is now accompanying a running restored car.
Pete, the ebay item you indicate is stated to belong to a RHD.

ralphr1780 wrote:On closer look, given the missing bits and pieces, seems to me obvious that the original title of this shell (surely a LHD, US import delivered in a 20' container) is now accompanying a running restored car.
Pete, the ebay item you indicate is stated to belong to a RHD.

the shell is rhd though.. at least pete says it is?

I hate to say this , but I do not believe this shell is restorable in an economic fashion irrespective of whether or not it can be given a legitimate identity . Although the metal work to the shell is expensive, the real bugbear with this is the missing parts . When I restored my FHC I did all the work myself with the exception of the welding and painting, and despite having a complete car to start with , I still spent over ?14,000 on top of the cost of metalwork/paint to restore the rest of it. Here. we have a shell on which everything is missing - frames , bumpers, interior trim , seats , steering gear, column and wheel , suspension front and rear, engine and gearbox , pedal box , all electrics , tailgate, all glass , all door fittings internal and external - the list is well-nigh endless. The cost of acquiring all this, even before one starts to restore the bits, will run well into 5 figures , and this means that to get a reasonable running example even if restoring the metalwork cost nothing will in my view exceed ?20,000, and a much more realistic estimate of the cost of putting this on the road is ? 40,000 . Stevewonder would in my sad view be far better cutting his losses and buying a cheap LHD 2+2 , quite reasonable running examples of which can still be seen at auction for no more than ?10,000

I am sorry to be so negative but this young man deserves some realistic advice

Hi, i wouldn't worry, the picture is of a shell but im not missing a lot of the parts you suggest, the trailer in the picture was being pulled by a van full of bits :). ill have the shell mint for the price of the panels, paint gas and some materials. many of the bits i am missing would be replaced as a matter of course on a detailed restoration like this.

I will check for the crayon marks on my tailgate / inner bulkhead when im next with the car, il also look for the tag on the rear of the car.

please could someone confirm if my engine number should start 7R?

Ta,

Steve

To be fair there is still the question of what happens if you find the body / chassis number and the DVLA tell you its assigned to another car... i.e. the previous owner sold this shell because it was more expensive to repair than buying another shell.

Hopefully it is all above board and you just have a lot of work ahead of you

ChrisC wrote:To be fair there is still the question of what happens if you find the body / chassis number and the DVLA tell you its assigned to another car... i.e. the previous owner sold this shell because it was more expensive to repair than buying another shell.

Hopefully it is all above board and you just have a lot of work ahead of you

Yeah tell me about it, thats the one nagging doubt in my mind. who knows, we will see. i got the lot so cheap i could easily make my money back selling the bits if i really hit a brick wall

ralphr1780 wrote:.. seems to me obvious that the original title of this shell (surely a LHD, US import delivered in a 20' container) is now accompanying a running restored car. Pete, the ebay item you indicate is stated to belong to a RHD.

I agree that Steve's project is the leftovers of someone's resto and the ID is probably on a completed car somewhere. No harm no foul, except that Steve is making an heroic decision to try and repair what someone else wisely considered not worth the candle... I have my doubts on that score but there it is.

I base my RHD view on the presence of heavy chopped wiring stumps on the inner RH side bulkhead consistent with RHD instrumentation. The harness at this point on a LHD car is more just transverse wiring. Could be wrong, but that was the first clue.

There is also the wire emerging below the bottle rack bracket (which looks used) on the right front bulkhead. This hole is blanked off on LHD. There is also a through-grommet on the left upper bulkhead that is blanked off on LHD cars. The rot is also typical of (but not unique to) RHD cars. So although I cannot be certain from the pictures we have, my guess would be that unusually this may be a RHD tub.

This unusual 'fact', coupled with the availability of a proclaimed RHD ID for the correct year but unspecified model (and therefore probably a 2+2) was what led me to make the quite probably incorrect connection with the eBay ID. It seems a coincidence at least, and it's quite possible an engineless 2+2v RHD wreck would be broken up like this, given the major restoration expense but lowest E-type value of the resultant car.

Steve, I identify with you mate, I really do. My first E-type was a dark blue 2+2 basket case like yours and I'm so glad it got me a 'ticket to the game'. I even made a profit from breaking it eventually and still have some bits left which will live on in my D-type. The difference is that it had a sound tub and I sincerely believe that even if you are a whiz at jigging and welding, the price of the panels alone is going to mean the kind of outlay that would get you halfway to a complete rough-running car. Going that route costs more initially but way less by the end (or even halfway through). You would also be able to drive it far sooner and/or choose to what level you smarten it up bit by bit. This one is going to bleed you white just to get a bare solid shell and frames in primer.

The only benefit of taking on your kind of task is pure against-all-odds stubborness and satisfaction, plus the low cost of entry. In reality, if you put away each month the kind of money you're going to need to spend on that, you would soon have a pot big enough to get something better. True, I have seen worse, but they were the higher value OTS/FHC models, so that if/when the person had to bale out due to life events or lack of funds, they stood more of a chance of coming out vaguely even. The only good point about your car is that it's a manual and you can use an XJ gearbox which is much cheaper than a SWB E-type gearbox. Against that is the hole in the roof... The whole bottom section looks way beyond patching but I'd be happy for you to prove me wrong. Welcome and good luck. Fortune favours the brave - sometimes.

The engine number (assuming you have the engine and it is original to the body) could give a clue to the chassis number, or at least get you close.

For an S2 2+2 the correct engine numbers will be in the sequence 7R 35000 onwards . The lower numbers were for the SWB cars, quite why I do not know

Heuer wrote:The engine number (assuming you have the engine and it is original to the body)...

Snowballs and Hell spring to mind... I can't envisage anyone re-shelling a car and retaining the ID but giving the engine away. In any case, you couldn't reverse-engineer the VIN even if by some fluke he happened to know that engine went with that tub. And yes, 7R would be an appropriate prefix engine but it makes no difference in the absence of a car number/VIN. Even if he finds the body tag, engine number and gearbox number (which it seems clear he won't) he will get nowhere with DVLA or even Jaguar Heritage, since they only search by car number/VIN

A point on one of Steve's other queries about the rear suspension... the IRS will need to be SWB E-type 50" track version, not anything wider. I think the SWB E-type was the narrowest, followed by the V12 E at 3 inches wider and S-type 4-ish inches wider. The MkX, 420G, XJ, XJ-S and others were all too wide as well and will not fit a Series 2 E-type.

As with much else, Steve will probably find that many missing bits are E-type specific (read 'expensive') and some of what he has is not E-type and needs to be substituted with pricier components. And an ID is likely to be the priciest of the lot, financially and possibly legally.

Hi Steve,

First of all, all the best with this project whatever you end up trying to do with it. I started from a not so different point many years ago, with a V12 2+2. I had the advantage of having most of the car, but no bonnet (or anything attached to it), boot floor removed rear end cut out, all chrome missing or beyond saving and, although I didn?t know it at the time, the engine was largely unusable and ended up being replaced, using as much of the original as possible. The car was Auto and I wanted Manual and it had the same hole in the roof that many are critical of.

For a quick look at what I achieved, look here (There are other posts with pictures too, if you want to take the time to search):

http://etypeuk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=385&highlight=

I did have the advantage of an ID and a very cheap purchase price and some repair panels were included in this. I now have a complete car with rebuilt engine, 5-speed manual gearbox, a rebuilt and much appreciated sunroof and totally restored in just about all areas. Like you plan to, I did all the work myself, with only the engine and sunroof farmed out to others. Body and paint I did myself. I spent nothing like the figures some have quoted as a result and my car is something I am very proud of.

However, in your case, some words of warning ? the ID is critical and, as far as I can tell, you will be very hard pressed to get one legally. The DVLA use a points scheme, aimed more at custom cars, using the term ?radically altered?, but they used to take this to include major restoration cases too (there were several articles about this in Practical Classics some years ago), with major parts of the original car required to be present in the rebuilt car, giving a point value for each item. This included values front & rear suspension, engine, body shell and I think chassis, where applicable, plus I think rear axle. The difficulty for DVLA is disproving this, should they choose to try, but in the case of the E-type, this becomes easier since the records kept were pretty good and were even include on the data plates of earlier cars, including I believe, all six cylinder cars. Of course the onus is on you to prove the car is legal, rather than the other way round, but the evidence you would be expected to produce will be difficult if not impossible to acquire. A quick internet search revealed this link:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... d-vehicles

There is a link on this page regarding reconstructed classic vehicles too but I must stress my knowledge may be out of date as I was applying this to a Triumph GT6 which ended up with a legal registration and ID, but this was in 2004, before I moved to Australia.

Also, in terms of cost, you may have a trailer full of parts, but you really must find out what is in it ? cost of, for example door & window mechanisms, glass, dash panels, radiator, brackets, brake servo and cylinders are all amazingly high for an E-type and many are not common to other cars (although some are). Many of my parts were not initially usable, but could either be repaired or exchanged with professional rebuilders, if they are missing you have a problem. It does lead to opportunity too, for instance I had no radiator, so the purchase cost of an Alloy Radiator was very similar to that of a copper item ? a cost normally offset by the core charge gained when you exchange your old, damaged item.

So, proceed carefully, good luck and I hope it works out well for you ? keep us posted,

Regards,

Simon