Ownership issues and beyond...

[inner pickle]

Given the large influx of LHD US / Eastern European and other locations, sourced cars now available, coupled to dubious ID tags being sold I'm just wondering if it's worthy to highlight some of the risks involved with these types of purchases AND the still high risks of choosing a dubious "restorer".

I can speak on both counts, having purchased what I considered to be a totally legitimate legal car only to find when I wrote to the "I owner" shown on the V5 that it was indeed still his car.

Now we all know the V5 is not a legal document of ownership but sometimes when hooked up to a Heritage Certificate and a good back story its easy to proceed and buy it. Imagine the horror of writing to the first and only owner on the V5 to not get an interesting letter back with some history but instead a telephone call from Mr Plod advising I had someone's car?

Well, it happened to me and it' not an easy place to get out of, my eternal thanks to an absolutely 100% honest 1st owner without who's decency we were able to conclude a proper transfer of ownership with the support of the local police.

Trust me, having a telephone call from the police on a Sunday morning advising that "your car" and with it north of £40k's worth of investment cost is no longer yours is not a good place to be. Imagine as I do therefore, despite my checks and balances being done, the risk some are clearly placing themselves with what appears to be "full title" US and other located cars. The original owners has every legal right to the car no matter what you may have spent on it in the interim, eg from a £15K wreck to a £100K north in value its still theirs !!

One further point, and its not just us E Type owners that this affects: in a chat with a young lad in an office recently he told me of his missing £15K on his US Buick he'd spent with a restorer, well, yes I've done exactly the same with a well known Jaguar restorer who's been mentioned in these pages on a few occasions. Despite the glossy website and a good working knowledge of the marque, it's only when you've parted with your hard earned ( £30K in my case ) that the real story's come out.

Put another way, my restoration thus far is some £5500.00 in legal fees, £30K in supposed "restoration costs" which we actually a fraud. The problem is proving it.
In my case I'd found a very good solicitor who'd progressed the ownership issues to a professional conclusion but bear in mind a good solicitor will want a £1500.00 deposit for starters.

I could go on with all kinds of fraudulent telephone calls, non action, disputes and blatant cheating on behalf of the "restorer" but the only obvious phase you need to remember is caveat emptor was a corner stone of the legal process for a reason, ignore it at your peril.

[mgcjag]

Im sorry to hear that you have had problems....what happened to the seller that you purchased the car from...had the car been stolen?....I dont understand if it was a 1 owner on the V5 and you wasnt purchasing from him then this should have rang alarm bells...or did the seller have a bill of sale (fake) from the V5 owner.....is the car now registered on http://www.xkedata.com/ ....this is a great resource to aid in logging car details ...Steve

[mgcjag]

PM sent to you....Steve (forum moderator)

[mgcjag]

Hi All.....I have been in private contact with the poster above......Just to confirm to everyone the Restoration company he is in dispute with has never been reccomended on our forum....I have searched our forum for the company/owners name and can only find one mention...someone posted asking if anyone knew or had heard of them.....no one had......This dosnt mean that the restorer isnt well known in the Jag world and highlights the need to check out anyone that you intend to use for restoration.... and as mentioned in the above posts ensure that if your purchasing then do ensure that the seller is the actual owner and has authorith to sell.....Steve

[AshM]

Thanks for doing all of that research Steve.

As always, your support to us on this forum is very much appreciated.

Hope to catch up again in 2020.

Cheers
Ash

[MarkS]

I really feel for the OP's suffering and angst with these two major issues. E-type ownership IS a huge risk, and there is lots of fraudulent activity going on out there. But it's all very well to say 'caveat emptor' and just accept that there will be a big risk in handing over your car and several thousand pounds to a restorer.
Surely, in these days of Google reviews and shared knowledge, we can all be made aware of other owners' experiences. And be able to make our own choices once we know which companies owners have had problems with. This has already happened for the better with some parts suppliers, and sharing knowledge is what this forum is all about.
Are you able to give a name, Inner? Or maybe just a general location?

[mgcjag]

The problem with posting names is that we dont know the full story and who is actually right or wrong therefore leaving us open to litigation.....there is nothing to stop you contacting the Original poster and asking for information....as you mention it is quite easy nowdays to check thing out but still easy to get caught out if you dont pay attention to details....Just for info a company search is very usefull when buying from a dealer or picking a restorer.....Steve
Edit....Please note that as far as im aware its not just the forum liable but also individuals that are open to litigation for anything they post online

[dxke38]

About 12 years ago, I found a very early flat floor FHC rolling chassis in Norfolk UK. It came with some old photos of the car when on the road and an old V5 showing the ID of the car. Luckily or so I thought the past owner on the V5 lived not too far away and I managed to meet him. He confirmed that he once owned the car but when he sold it the new owner never took the V5 and he heard the car was written off soon after. DVLC would not issue me with a new V5 until the car was restored, inspected and back on the road. I decided not to go ahead with spending any money on the car with no confidence that I would be able to regain its original ID so I listed it on XKE Data and waited to see if any info was available. 18 months later the listing was altered to show this car as restored as original and residing in London. I still have my version of the car, albeit with no ID and thankfully I only dismantled it and had the body sandblasted. Buyer beware.
Happy new year all

[inner pickle]

we will all have opinions and experiences to add to the pot here.

I have already had a private exchange with Steve the moderator involving himself with this original post.

The balance I tried to strike was, - and it doesn't matter which restorer I used, - you simply have to be ultra careful in selecting the original purchase - as has been highlighted by the previous post - and the selected company to complete work on your car. All natural, sensible actions of course.

The issue we all have on this board, is, as the marque edges ever higher in value, the focus and opportunity for deceit gets ever closer too.

Indeed the more you dig around and discuss with fellow owners and enthusiasts is such incidents are more and more prevalent.

The whole purpose of the original post was to draw attention to the risks and I can assure you if it can happen to me it can happen to anyone. Be careful.

[max-it-out]

In light of your experiences , could you give any advice on how to deal with restorers/specialist garages eg when is it ok to pay up front , and do you need a legally enforceable contract drawn up before handing over your car ?

[1954Etype]

I can’t speak for other restorers but we never ask for money up front. We only invoice for works completed and parts purchased for each customer.

On some of our larger restorations, a number of customers have transferred money up front. We open a separate savings account for them and when an invoice is agreed, move the amount to cover it from their account to ours.

This way, if there is a falling out (not happened yet thank goodness) we can hand the outstanding monies back along with the car and parts purchased.

[mgcjag]

If anyone is looking for reccomendations for a restorer to work on their E type there can be no better place to ask than right here on the forum.....If you chose a restorer that isnt known by members here you could be running into trouble as the original poster can testify....Also if your looking to purchase an E type then post the details here.....if anyone knows of a problem or can spot a problem with the car they will let you know......Also as Angus has mentioned above any cash up front payments should be treated with caution and really should only be considered if major parts or work are required and you can see what your monies have purchased in stages.......Also worth making sure your insurance is up to date....Steve

[Robbiee]

Hi friends
Butlins of Swadlincote (Derbyshire/Staffordshire) are fantastic. Their bodywork is second to none
No up front payment, fab quality work, pay as work is done in stages...if you can’t afford next stage they will put on hold and get on with other customers cars.

Main issue...you may have to wait for a slot, but well worth the wait.

Robbie

[Series1 Stu]

Plus 1 for Butlin. They painted my friend's 67 911 and it is superb.

Regards

[Sarthe72]

My car was restored (for the second time in 30 years!) by Castle Classics near Basingstoke. Fabulous rapport, excellent workmanship (he taught himself to lead load) and a final product to be proud of. I can only speak as I find, but have one reservation. Would he be able to take the job on? He tends to be booked up.

[AshM]

A couple of similar points made in the last posts.

If the restorer can start straight away then that would make me think. All of the respected restorers have some degree of wait list. Usually the better they are the longer the list!

Not an exact science but something to consider.