The 'E' Type Forum

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21906/lot/364/

Its good, but not THAT good!

Two hundred grand and you don't even get a driver's door glass...

PeterCrespin wrote:Two hundred grand and you don't even get a driver's door glass...

Pah - Mr Perfect!

Still, good news for the rest of us unless you want to use your car of course. On the other hand I see a trend here - journalist buys car, restores car, sells car at huge profit. Are you missing a trick Mr Crespin?

Happy Days....Coupe should be up with roadster prices anyway....better looking cars IMO

Pah, that's nothing, 253 k euros.

Here's a more expensive one:

http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s ... ref=search

Asking 330 Base Price !

Carsten

Durango2k wrote:Pah, that's nothing, 253 k euros.

Here's a more expensive one:
Asking 330 Base Price !

Probably Papiermarks, not Euros. Bad news all round for our hobby in my view.

I am desperately troubled by this sudden inflation in E type prices . I would like to think that the prices achieved at auction are genuine but in some cases cars are run through auctions where there is no genuine sale, but a pre-arranged scheme by 2 "bidders" to run the price up so that later a premium price for that or indeed other cars already held in stock can be asked. It is the direct opposite of the "ring" which took place in the 60s and 70s where a concert party of dealers agreed not to bid so as to depress prices . This sort of problem arises where money takes over from interest in the articles, and it will end in the sort of disaster which occurred in 1990. Another facet of it is that dealers are "valuing" vehicles for insurance purposes at sums far greater than their actual worth i.e. talking up values , and the result will be that sooner or later an insurer will allege that a fraudulent value was put on a car . I agree with Peter, this is bad news all round

I should add with this particular car that any "profit" may be illusory. It cost 15K + premium to start with and was then with Robeys for quite a few years. It is quite easy to spend well into 6 figures on that sort of restoration where 2 days spent on e.g. a heater box will have cost over ?1000, and I know of one acquaintance who has spent over ?150K on doing up his late Father's 2+2 . In the past, however, it was impossible to recover the restoration costs, and whether that still applies is a moot point - however, as a guide, 2 persons known to me shared a DB5 which sold for well over ?300K at R&M and having restored it they still made a loss on it

Still we are lucky that the Es are not as rare as the most sought Ferrari of the period, because then costs might go up to one order of magnitude higher. For the time being we are still in a range bound by the costs for restoration and 200k seems to be the upper bound for rare models such as this flat floor

Flat floors are not rare - Jaguar built 2,616 of them (about 1/3 of 3.8 production) and offered a dished footwell retro-fit kit to owners in period to make them more comfortable.

Prices of E-Type's are not suddenly increasing dramatically - they have gone up between 15 and 25% in the last year or typically about ?500/month and that is a reflection of increased demand vs supply. Jaguar is in the ascendant. the F-Type and its publicity closely associating it with the E-Type. Young people generating wealth have an appetite for ownership and who can blame them! Simon Johnson on this very Forum is a classic example.

I'm with Christopher on this one. I've long suspected that shill bidding has become prevalent at auctions, just to increased the value of a particular brand, and to encourage panic buying by those who think they'll miss out if they wait. I also feel that the classic-car industry is enjoying another bubble, similar to the one we saw in the late 1980s, when skyrocketing Ferrari prices dragged everything else in the stratosphere, only to see a marketwide collapse a few years later. E-Types are not rare, so it won't take much for the supply to exceed the demand as more cars make their way back onto the road.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, the silver lining to all of this is that cars previously considered not worthy of restoration are coming out of the garages and back gardens, and being put back into circulation. The days of three cars going into the shop with only one coming out are probably behind us. The downside to this activity is that it brings out the less-than-reputable guys who perform bodged restorations to get cars into the marketplace as quickly as possible. We saw this in the late '80s, and quite a few people bought E-Types and other classics, only to find out later that they plunked down a large amount of cash for a collection of tinworms and body filler.

My crystal ball (which is usually clear as mud) tells me that buyers paying these massive sums for E-Types with no real provenance (no famous past owners, etc.) are going to be taking some significant haircuts in the next couple of years.

Moeregaard wrote:I'm with Christopher on this one. I've long suspected that shill bidding has become prevalent at auctions,

Pardon my ignorance, but wouldn't the auction house have to be in on such a scheme? From my limited experience of them they would not forgo their seller and buyer fees and that would mean two crooks in cahoots would still have to pay many thousands to the auctioneer?

I can easily believe two crooks bidding up each others stock but it's a bit more of a stretch to imagine one of a limited number of auction houses - even the 'phoenix' one that had (has?) banned directors - from openly cooking their books?

On the subject of originality of the car under discussion I was under the distinct impression that the never officially recognised 'pumpkin head' colour never got past #860006. Also I am disappointed to see the oil pressure gauge is not period correct as it is marked "Made in UK" rather than "Made in England" The devil is in the detail

Heuer wrote:On the subject of originality of the car under discussion I was under the distinct impression that the never officially recognised 'pumpkin head' colour never got past #860006. Also I am disappointed to see the oil pressure gauge is not period correct as it is marked "Made in UK" rather than "Made in England" The devil is in the detail

Since the price is out of all proportion to the value, mere factual product attributes are hardly germane, dear boy. One may as well try to justify a Premier League footballer's wages by reference to the number of toes fitted. On that basis I'm worth a fortune.

Do keep up! :-)

It's a real sale, I am sure about that . I really do think that there are new buyers coming into the game who are driving these prices. To be honest I was at the auction yesterday and felt it could make ?250,000. The reality is that ?200,000 is peanuts for lots of people and actually if you buy a wreck for ?40k , wait two years and pay an expert ?70/hour for a 2000 hour rebuild yesterday's sale stacks up. Does anyone know who bought it? I know a certain well known F1 personality already has bought up 8 series one cars. I wonder if he was shopping again yesterday ?

At the same auction a 1954 Ferrari 375-plus only fetched ?9.6m which was considered to be a disappointingly low figure - they were hoping for twice that! Next up will be the Porsche 917 in Gulf livery which was owned by Jo Siffert and driven by Steve McQueen in the film Le Mans. "It's a turgid, plot-less nightmare for everyone else, but if there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that Steve McQueen, the Heuer Monaco watch he wears, and the Porsche 917 he drives are all effortlessly cool. Bidding for that 917, which goes under the hammer at Gooding and Company's Monterey auction later this year, will be anything but cool. The most expensive automobile that Gooding & Company has ever sold at public auction is the 1957 Ferrari 250 Testa Rossa which fetched $16,390,000 (?9,628,000) at the same sale back in 2011. We expect to shatter that record at Pebble Beach this year. "

Heuer wrote: Young people generating wealth have an appetite for ownership and who can blame them! Simon Johnson on this very Forum is a classic example.

That's it David, name and shame! ;) In all seriousness, I'll probably be chasing a value for a long time...

andrewh wrote:It's a real sale, I am sure about that . I really do think that there are new buyers coming into the game who are driving these prices. To be honest I was at the auction yesterday and felt it could make ?250,000. The reality is that ?200,000 is peanuts for lots of people and actually if you buy a wreck for ?40k , wait two years and pay an expert ?70/hour for a 2000 hour rebuild yesterday's sale stacks up. Does anyone know who bought it? I know a certain well known F1 personality already has bought up 8 series one cars. I wonder if he was shopping again yesterday ?

Wonder if he wants a roadster to match :D If he's on this forum contact me and deposit ?210K in my bank and I'll drive the car to you and walk home.

Dave

I wonder if its also to do with Jaguar s new heritage operations. As you will mostly all now know Jaguar are copying Ferrari in offering authentication for cars and are getting fully behind their heritage in a volte face. I think it's the China Syndrome coming to the fore again, and as the modern cars sell into new territories so new owners buy into the Jaguar brand and what better car to own than an E Type to sit alongside your new F Type. jaguar will provide you with an historic Jaguar fully restored and authenticated by them. They are not goi g to be selling those for ?100k now are they? Try ?300,000 for a series 1 would be my guess. In a way it's in Jaguars interest to see the value of its history increase , it adds status. As a yardstick Aston will ask you ?350k plus donor to supply a fully restored DB5

I still think we're seeing a bubble with the classic-car market. While E-types and other significant cars from the era will likely never become worthless, the market will fluctuate. I see it as a parallel to the real-estate game, in that buying land is often a good investment because they're not making any more of it. That said, at some point in time the speculators will realize that the cost to buy in is no longer in their best interests, as was the case with housing in California, before the crash a few years ago brought things back to a somewhat normal level. Markets have a way of taking care of themselves.

The new owners of these cars will eventually dispose of them for a variety of reasons: loss of interest, economic difficulties, etc., and we'll see prices heading downhill to more sensible levels.