Cheap for an OTS?

malcolm · Post by **malcolm** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:43 am

I'm no expert, but doesn't this seem cheap for an OTS despite the few declared faults? http://tinyurl.com/nv2c3ay

Post by **1954Etype** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 11:47 am

Definitely way too cheap!

spanish 2+2 · Post by **spanish 2+2** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:05 pm

I think on current values, its at least 20 000 pounds too cheap!

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:21 pm

"JEC Insurance valuation ?38,000" says it all really - they are a bit behind the pack. Make a superb car for someone at a bargain price!

ralphr1780 · Post by **ralphr1780** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:13 pm

Something is wrong here.
Probably non matching numbers...

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:33 pm

"Matching numbers" really has no bearing on E-Type values and is a carry over from US muscle cars. For example Ford built 859 of the highly valued Boss 429 Mustang and over a million of the standard cars. Many unscrupulous people decided to create their own 'Boss 9' from a standard bodyshell and the parts are readily available including the engine and fender decals. Fortunately the cars had very specific serial numbers and the factory records detail all the various component numbers. So if you wanted a genuine '9' you had to make sure the numbers were matching and the differences in value are huge because of it. Happened the same with several other US specials. Then some dealer over here decided the words "matching numbers" was something sexy and a good selling point for E-Type's but given the the only 'specials' were the Lightweights, and there were 70,000 standard cars built, it means little. So as long as you have a car with Jaguar parts it is as genuine an E-Type as you can get nowadays given the bodywork will have been repaired, re-painted, new frames, new chrome, new interior, 5 speed box, electronic ignition, Coolcat fan etc etc etc. So matching numbers should be the last thing on the mind of any potential purchaser!

harryetype · Post by **harryetype** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:39 pm

Very well said Mr Jones.

Mark Gordon · Post by **Mark Gordon** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:27 pm

No doubt that you're right, David. However, a car (or most anything for that matter) is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. On this side of the pond, people do seem to care about matching numbers, particularly for the engine and VIN. After my recent engine rebuild, mine is no longer "matching numbers" since it has a Series II engine and head in it. The car seems to be quite happy with the situation the way that it is, but since some future owner may be willing to pay a premium for those magic matching numbers, I have kept in storage the original engine and head.

ralphr1780 · Post by **ralphr1780** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:30 pm

David,
I fully agree with your statement.
But what if the chassis nr on the title is the one of a coup? or 2+2 while the car is an OTS? Or an S3 or S1?
This is what I meant by "non matching" numbers.
And believe me, have seen few of these around lately.
Some cars look stunning, until you check the nrs.
I will drop you a link by pm for illustration.
Cheers,

Post by **Heuer** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:50 pm

If we are talking numbers that confirm the car's identity then of course I agree. If that car is a genuine RHD OTS then a replaced engine or gearbox is pretty trivial in the scheme of things but I have spoken to people who have walked away from really good cars because they are not matched with the original running gear, yet pay a premium for one that is matching but needing huge amounts of work. I have not seen the car in question but ?32k for a nice S2 OTS is excellent value even if you just enjoy it over the summer and put it up for sale next spring. At a fairly large profit I would guess!

malcolm · Post by **malcolm** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:08 pm

Loking at the work on the stripped down frame in the photos, and the interior shots, it looks better than average as well.

vikla · Post by **vikla** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:21 pm

I saw the advert before I saw this post.
I sent the guy an email at lunchtime telling him how under priced it was and hoped he didn't sell it to a dealer who would then just make a big profit.

I just got a reply from him:
Thanks for the advice, car sold for full asking price to the first guy who saw it, so I guess it was too cheap, however I needed a quick sale & it didn't go to a dealer.

So someone got a bargain.
The advert was only placed on Sunday....

On another note, Coys are auctioning 14 E-Types on 12th July
http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?aucti ... &start=121

spanish 2+2 · Post by **spanish 2+2** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:32 pm

If the guy who's bought that car, buy's a lottery ticket he'll probably get the jackpot. :D

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:36 pm

I don't agree that matching numbers issue is not relevant to the E Type.

The matching numbers issue is fundamental to the provenance of any car, and a car with enough provenance to authenticate that it is what it claims to be is worth considerably more than one without.

Why? Because that's the way the antique and art markets have worked for many years, and it's the way the car market has worked, at least going back to the 1950s when the early racing cars were starting to be valued.

I guess that if you split the market into polarised positions, then the two extremes are easy to define. On one hand, you have folks who just want to drive the car and have fun with it, and originality means little. On the other extreme are those who collect cars in 'perfect' original specification, that are as close to original factory condition as they can be. For the first group, provenance means very little, and for the second, it means everything.

But most of us live somewhere in-between those two positions, where the provenance matters, for some a bit, and for some a lot.

It will certainly affect the value of the top quartile of cars, and I would venture that anybody spending ?100k plus on a classic car is going to want more than just a good looking car in front of them.

There are a couple of issues that arise with our cars in particular. In the 1980s and 90s, many E Types were brought over to the UK from the dry states of the USA, and most were sold on as such. There were a few that were used to re-shell an 'original UK' car, and retained the identity of that UK original car. In 3 cars that I know of, the UK original car was nothing more than a log book.....they didn't and don't have matching numbers.

The S3 Coupe being converted to an OTS with an original UK OTS identity is another example of where a car will not have matching numbers.

A car stolen to order to 'clone' a known written-off (or just an ID) will also not have matching numbers.

These examples are very rare for sure, and having matching numbers doesn't prove that the car is authentic. But not having them does beg the question...what happened?

The Jaguar engine and gearbox are pretty robust bits of kit, and I would imagine that few of them have let go to the extent that another unit is required. Of course, years ago it was cheaper to do just that I guess.

Or was the car stolen and all the valuable bits pinched, and the car rebuilt from 2nd hand parts? The 'driver' category wouldn't mind that at all!

Provenance certainly adds considerably to a car's desirability and hence it's value, and the 'matching numbers' issue must make fairly substantial contribution to the provenance of a car.

At the very least, it's going to be a differentiator between two otherwise similar cars, and there are quite a few E Types coming onto the market currently.

Moeregaard · Post by **Moeregaard** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:46 pm

My first thought when I saw the ad was that this guy just wants out of the E-Type game--and quickly.

SEJohnson95 · Post by **SEJohnson95** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:19 pm

I agree with Mark. I think "matching numbers" - most important of all the engine - is something that would definitely be a fault against the car for me. I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to those sort of things and I want to be a part of the history of the car, and without the original engine or 'box one cannot help but feel something is lost. Yes it's somewhat intangible but it would bother me

MarekH · Post by **MarekH** » Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:25 pm

You are all looking at this from only one perspective:- imagine a rusted car fitted with v8 engine which has many unoriginal parts. A new owner may fit the correct specification engine and second hand parts, weld in new metalwork and substantially bring the car forwards from where it was.

kind regards
Marek

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:26 am

There's nothing at all wrong with doing that Merek, and I've done it myself! When there is no other choice then, to me, the car has to be re-created rather than scrapped.

But the argument I was putting forward is that ,matching numbers do matter, and yes, it really does apply to E Types, Minis, MGBs, Lotus Elans, Aston Martins, Ferraris and every other classic.

Here's an interesting comparison of original vs non-original to maybe underline the point I'm making though. It's a bit more than non-matching engine and gearbox numbers.

A friend restored Roger Clark's rally Mk 1 Lotus Cortina back in the 80s, and there was virtually nothing left of the original shell as it was used up in Rallycross after two seasons of international rallying.

He spent 3 years very carefully copying the small gussets, extra brackets and tack-welds into another, near perfect shell, and re-created the car from the remains of the original. Of course, the car didn't have it's original engine, and it had been through 10 or more in it's competition career.

The result is a stunning looking re-creation of the original car, and does have quite a few original bits and pieces, such as the identity, the instruments, seats, Halda, steering wheel and a bit more. It changed hands recently for ?50k, much the same sort of price as a standard road car.

The Alan Mann Mk 1 Lotus Cortina raced by Sir John Whitmore sold 2 years ago for ?200k. It has it's original shell and hasn't been re-painted since it raced in the mid 1960s.

For me, the rally car is far more interesting as it can be used on the road, whereas the race car cannot, nor can it be raced as it would be smashed to pieces with the current mob of classic saloon car racers!

But the market rates the 'original' unusable car as being worth 4 times that of the re-creation, which has been used since in classic rallies.

To some, including me, that is just crazy, but to others, it's an obvious and correct valuation.

The two cars are obviously extreme cases of matching vs non matching, but if you consider a restored E Type with non matching engine and box, what do you have that's original? If the shell has been re-created from little more than a good bulkhead, as many UK cars have been, then it's not so different to the rally car after all.

MarekH · Post by **MarekH** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:08 am

Dear Merk,

I don't think the matching numbers argument translates particularly well to a racing car, since this will be dismantled and rebuilt with different parts by the race. The background story of such a car is always a major part of the selling experience.

For a standard car, condition aside, I take the view that they are all worth roughly the same of money, but the story told is different and people will pay for the story if it is told well:- "My car used to be owned by Quentin Wilson, blah blah.....concours winner.....mutter mutter....very desirable.....". Yawn. The reason a car is auctioned is that the seller hopes that the auctioneer can tell a better story to a wider audience, more so than the premium charged by the auctioneer.

If you want originality from a Ford rally car, just go to Gartrac and ask them to make you up the parts from the original jigs, by the original people who made them first time around.

kind regards
Marek

MarkE · Post by **MarkE** » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:18 am

I agree that it doesn't translate to a race car, but comparing two race cars with, arguably, an equal appeal, does demonstrate the market preference. And the forums at the time were full of exactly this sort of discussion, with many condemning the rally car as a 'fake'.

Gartrac had nothing to do with the works Cortinas, either rally or race. They came along in the Escort period...another car that suffers greatly from the originality debate. Get a shell built for one of those by Gartrac and it is immediately condemned as was the Cortina rally car!

Folks can be very fickle.

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

Link:
BBcode:
HTML:
	Hide post links

The 'E' Type Forum

Cheap for an OTS?

#1 Cheap for an OTS?

#2 Re: Cheap for an OTS?

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10

#11

#12

#13

#14

#15

#16

#17

#18

#19

#20