Rusty old cats

[Bakergt40]

Hi, having been new to e types and the forum and considering a restoration ( should a suitable car become available ) I was wondering why so many of these bodyshells were so badly rusted.
It appears to me that they had no protection either inside or out.
I remember being told how bare mini shells were outside ready to be painted with corrosion already setting in.
We're the e types like this ?
Can anyone explain the anti corrosion used. Or lack of it
Why so much rusty evidence everywhere.

Not that my car is like this, hopefully !
Cheers

[David Oslo]

On the factory fit 3.8 thread I posted this (haven't figured out how to quote from another thread, so this is just copy paste).

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject:
I've recently finished a careful paint stripping of my 30K mile one-owner car, and can confirm in reverse sequence the paint layers. Under my pale primrose I had a layer of grey primer (which I assume was a sort of filler / primer - known as surfacer in the trade), then red primer (as in red oxide) and then black phospate on the bits that got dipped.

When the car was bare metal it was simple to see the trajectory the body took through the dip bath. Firstly nose down at approx 45 degrees, dipped up to approx 6" along the bonnet bulge, then raised a bit, parallel with ground and dipped such that the bottom few inches of the doors got bathed (hence also the entire sill section and floors) then nose up, approx 45 degrees and back end / tail deep enough in the bath to take the bottom half of the tailgate.

Maybe the dip pattern was deepened during the years, but this for sure was how my Dec '66 built car was done.
_________________

[Bakergt40]

So were they treated , sort of ?

[Bakergt40]

So if they were dipped in something what was it ?
After dipping presume they went into the paint shop ?
What sort of paint was applied to the underside and was any kind of under seal used.. Presumably not
I realise there's a lot of seals on the cars and drains in various positions
If the drains got blocked then water laid in areas,, hence rust.

Why would the inner seals rot so bad if they were sealed ?

Any info appreciated

[David Oslo]

So if they were dipped in something what was it ?
After dipping presume they went into the paint shop ?

To re-quote myself from previous reply: black phosphate on the bits that got dipped.

And yes, after dipping (and a trip through a drying oven) they went into the paint shop, to get the layers of primer, surfacer and paint as described.

The inner surface of the sills would only have had the phospate coating, no paint. The phosphate is porous and should ideally be covered with a top coat, or oil film. It does however enhance corrosion resistance, hence it's use. The sills during their life will have been repeatedly exposed to moisture and condensation during the wet or humid seasons. Without the top-coat of paint, or other film protection the car will essentially rust from the inside out (as did all cars up until double coated zinc sheet steel was introduced).

[rolando38]

few points I can add on corrosion topic:

from observation of condensation on my cars , the major sources of corrosion are :
1/ during autumn and spring, air is humid and temperature difference between night and day can be up to 20?C (ie 5 in the night, 25 in the day, and if sunny the body can reach 45?C easily); this leads to huge quantity of condensed water on, below and in the body during the night ; when I mean huge I have estimated 3-4 liters of water on a single car left outside; this happen much less if the car is indoors or simply under a carport because the T? of the body only raises up to ambient T?

2/ entering a wet car on a rainy day in a heated garage; this creates a tropical atmosphere situation....

on protection, I was told that in Switzerland the Jaguar dealers/importe used to systematically protect the new cars underneath with Blackson or similar before delivery to custmer; my 1970 XJ6 is protected this way, and hasnever rusted (but I do not know her full history, neither do I know of this has also applied to pre-1970 E types)

[Heuer]

[Bakergt40]

Thanks for that information,
As well as condensation there's the issue of rain water getting past seals, say on the doors and lying in the bottom of the doors .

I suppose were all at 50 years old a little rustler than when younger.

Cheers all

[Bakergt40]

I'll be keeping my eyes open for a rusty old cat series 1 or 2 fhc or roadster
And see what comes up

Anyone know of one let me know

[1954Etype]

I'll be keeping my eyes open for a rusty old cat series 1 or 2 fhc or roadster
And see what comes up

Anyone know of one let me know

This is the worst possible way to get into E type ownership. You are best off looking for a sound body with mechanicals, trim and paintwork requiring attention.

[Durango2k]

I can more than confirm whats written above these lines !

Carsten, been there.

[Bakergt40]

Your correct of course but I already have that with my restored 64

The thought of restoring a body would be of great interest and acquiring the knowledge on the way would be the best bit.
I have restored a 59 Cadillac before and of course built six kit cars from scratch, gt40s,ultimas,Cobras,Westfield etc etc
I have restored many motorcycles from 1924 to 1979.
There's a lot of comments about how difficult they are to do but without sounding big headed ,,they don't look to bad as long as you stick to the rules as to speak. Time consuming for sure .
I've been an engineer for over 40 years and the thought of it don't bother me much. In my line of business I have all the facilities at hand.

I like a challenge

[Bakergt40]

In reply to Steve
I don't want to spend a fortune on one and the less you pay the worst it will be I'm sure.
I recently met someone who bought a series 2 fhc for less than 14k last year and it wasn't that bad, although he was good with the spanner as such and progressing well with it now.

[christopher storey]

Kit cars and motorcycles have absolutely nothing in common with an E type in terms of restoration . The E, particularly in the bulkhead area, is an incredibly complex construction with a sandwich of three panels and stiffeners meeting at the front edge ( about level with the top engine frame ) and if this sandwich is rotted it is virtually impossible to repair. The same complexity applies to the area where the inner wheelarches meet the rear panels, and to the lower footwells where the lower frames attach , and another very complex area is the panel below the bottom of the tailgate on a closed car . Both the cost of the panels , and the time taken , are not to be underestimated . If you look on xkedata at some of the restoration photos ( my FHC 1E20357 is a case in point ) you will get an idea of what is involved


The purpose of this is not to put you off , but it is to alert you to the reality of dealing with rotten Es, so that you go into it with your eyes open

[Bakergt40]

Thanks Chris, the more info the better
As for restoration I'm not assuming it's a piece of cake just that a man built it so a man can restore it, otherwise there would be no restored e types around.
I know very well a man who rebuilds Astons and is a superb old school fabricator and in his words there no problem, but he is very experienced.
There's a common link though to old bikes, there both crappy condition and often non runners
As an apprentice long ago there was a sign on the wall "if in doubt ask "

I'm gathering info and willing to ask and in no hurry

Cheers
Keith

[nefematic]

Keith,
I think Christopher stated well. As you say, there may well be many a restored e-type around. I dare you though to take an experienced e-type restorer along and look at a few in detail. Many might turn out to be mediocre at best. Just by following the forums, and some of the blogs and books, I have come to appreciate the comments of very experienced enthusiasts here. It might not seem that complex especially with your kind of background. But to get everything right the first time around is going to involve a lot of digging and research for almost any move thats undertaken. I came to my S2 OTS more or less by chance, and enjoy fiddling it back on to road. It was bought complete and running. I had to put in floors and outer sills. I'm looking forward to (whenever) doing a full resto, once life and finances allow for that.

So if you're not in hurry that will help. Take your time and enjoy the ride!

Martin

[Bakergt40]

Point taken Martin.
Everyone's comments welcomed

[christopher storey]

Keith - Astons are very , very different, being certainly from the DB4 onwards of superleggera construction i.e effectively a panel clad spaceframe. Whilst those bring their own rather specialised problems, they are rather easier to deal with because you can at least get at the tubes .

[Bakergt40]

Thanks Chris,
As well as Astons I know he has restored the body of a e type roadster a few years ago . I remember seeing it although I didn't study it ? I know
He built a jig for sure but I can't remember exactly what it looked like.
I remember thinking, so much rust .
I know it's not a simple task but that's the beauty of it.
Are there any individuals , not restoration companies that have restored really crappy e types ? I'm sure there is.

Regards Keith

[Durango2k]

I gave up and bought a better shell.

Simple decision - I paid less for the shell / tub than all the to-be-replaced sheet metal parts would have costed alltogether. And that would have been before welding them in, primer and shiny new paint.

And it did speed up the rebuild a lot - about 2 yrs or so.

It may well be that without this tub, I might have given up and sold the car in parts to buy a better one.

I made one heavy mistake - all the Citroens I ever bought for 7 grand were nice and an easy fix. Of course, because the final car costs in the mid-twenties.

Now paying 7 for a car which costs 10 times more when done - will give you a heap of rusty crap, and a shedload of work. Exactly every part on my car was gone and needed overhauling. Tub rusted no floors, engine dead as a dodo, tensioner in oil pan, interior rotten and car inside sprayed with a black rattle can. Rusty rims and five different tyres on them.

Carsten