The 'E' Type Forum

Read my lips - Twenty One E-Types in one auction.

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila-ruote

How come nobody seems to have flagged this up yet, what exactly DO you lot get up to whilst I'm absent from the Forum for months at a time ?!

http://www.rmsothebys.com/lots/?sort=ma ... ion=Jaguar

I'll be in Milan for this, looks like an exciting weekend.

Who's going to start the comments on the valuations ?

Rory, do you mean this? viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9733

Seems we are not quite so slacking as you thought. Now as you are closer than most of us will you be taking proxy bids for us? At those low estimates you could buy several for us

Edited to add: where did these all suddenly appear from? Seems quite a haul.

Geoff

Can't see any of them going anywhere near as low as the estimates.

Ah, I see why - I DID search the Forum looking for a Milan topic but your heading "One For Peter" wouldn't have popped up ......... probably someone can now tell me how I'm using the Search wrong !

There's a good explanation here

https://k500.com/story-item/stop-the-au ... -cars-back

about why/where our bullion-carrier came to have his cars sold by the Fisc, and apparently a lot more in the local Treviso press for the Transalpine-speakers amongst us.

I was informed by some Italian fellows about this coming.
However they warned me that quite a nr of cars did not have the proper paperwork, hence the low valuations.
Nevertheless, there will surely very interesting bargains.
On another note, the black S1 OTS is very tempting, and has a peculiar throttle linkage which is worthwhile looking at.

Here's a quick link to just the Jaguars:

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila- ... ion=Jaguar

If they go for anything close to the reserve's then there will be some bargains subject to seeing them "in the flesh" & the paperwork ?

Many without documents... uh-oh...

I'm afraid there may be a spate of thefts or a surge in cloning from illegit papers. What am I saying? There HAS been a spate of thefts and people trying to obtain papers for unidentified/unidentifiable collections of parts.

Pete

Came across this interesting exchange :

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintag ... milan.html

where there is a post from a guy on Page 3 (Franco Lombardi) with a link to the lawyers who are handling this for the Italian State, and I quote :


For those of you that seem to be interested in this highly unusual auction but are discouraged by the administrative procedures related to buying a car there and finding the proper document and shipping solution, S&P Advisory SARL operating from MC, Principaute de Monaco, and Treviso (Italy) could be the answer. This Law Firm has been instrumental in helping the Guardia di Finanza (the Italian Internal Revenue System) and RM Sotheby in setting-up this sale. They have the experience and the knowledge to professionally advise any foreign buyer in this matter. You might contact Dr. Nicola Parolin at office.02@sp-adv.eu
Good luck!
Franco Lombardi

Perhaps a lead towards understanding what documents a buyer will end up with ?

£3,000 for a 1967 Porsche 911 S?

£10k for at XK140?

I will take 3 please.

I am getting on a plane now.

Not really.

I know auctioneers add low reserves to sales catalogues, to hook the punters, but this takes it to a new level of B**lsh*t.

rfs1957 wrote: Perhaps a lead towards understanding what documents a buyer will end up with ?

Most of the cars in that auction that I viewed simply had a bill of sale. But then I've purchased numerous vehicles, including an E-Type with no documents, just a receipt from the seller and never had a problem. Just because a particular car may have been purchased with "dirty money" by the previous owner doesn't necessarily invalidate the purchase. It's a different story of course if a car turns out to be stolen.

There are lots of ways to obtain the necessary documents if the purchase is above board.

PeterCrespin wrote:Many without documents... uh-oh...

I'm afraid there may be a spate of thefts or a surge in cloning from illegit papers. What am I saying? There HAS been a spate of thefts and people trying to obtain papers for unidentified/unidentifiable collections of parts.

Pete

Worth noting Peter that for some reason around 1962 chassis number 885409 for the 3.8 fhc Jaguar changed the font for the stamping of the picture frame. One can only assume someone had misplaced the normal set of stamps and had to order another set from E bay before Sir William found out. Also note that around this chassis number Jaguar started to use a proper "-" on the head number rather than turning the "1" on its side. Some might speculate that this was the work of a rogue apprentice rather than any much later attempt to change the identity of the engine/car. The unique characteristics of this particular car are reflected in its higher reserve price.

Simon

I am clearly in a minority, because I don't find many of the estimates all that low. Most of the E types are very very rough indeed when one looks at the small pictures. Even the 3.8 FHC in white is clearly not what it seems - when one looks at the underbonnet picture the paint job is clearly a typical blow over , and the state of the floors leads me to thin that rot will be around in all the usual places - and that is the car which looks to be the best of the bunch. Incidentally, I could not find the one 885.... referred to above

Chris, let's face it, we're doomed. Valuing cars by condition and provenance is soooo twentieth century. We need to use fashion and investment potential as our key criteria...

288gto wrote:
Also note that around this chassis number Jaguar started to use a proper "-" on the head number rather than turning the "1" on its side.
Simon

Would you mean the contrary?
I thought that using the 1 on its side was normal practice.
As also shown e.g. on the head of the white 1964 FHC.

Serge,

I'm sorry, but my odd English humour and sarcasm has been lost in translation. I was hoping the reference to E bay in 1962 would have given it away.

To clarify, the chassis and head number have clearly been re stamped at a later date and badly at that. As Christopher says some of the paint jobs look like they have been done with a brush to change the colour. Had I been unfortunate enough to have had an e type stolen in the past I would be going there just to see if I recognised anything.

Simon

I think Simon has a point about going to see whether your car isn't amongst those on sale ...........

Lot 272, the white 62 FHC, has stampings on the picture frame that include E TYPE and something to either side of the engine number - anyone ever seen this before ?

Lot 576, the white 63 OTS, this has a flat hyphen and not a 1 on its side too, and so does the red UK-reg one Lot 632 - are we sure that this makes them rogue ?

How about lot 868, the white 62 OTS, the head-stamping around the R and the 5 looks littered with silhouettes - is that a 4 I can see lurking in there ?

I note that lot 330 has its chassis plate secured with self-tappers (well, three anyway !) - ready for quick flip, or to fasten to mine perhaps - must go down and look if it's still in the workshop.

The 4.2s all seem to have chassis numbers that are stamped with 1E preceding the number, something I've not seen on 3.8s - is that another Well Known Fact ?

As regards values, the only example I have to hand is the Kidston https://k500.com/ listings, where their Poor/Average/Good/Excellent ranges from USD 15-25-50-75K for the S3 2+2, via 75/100/225/350K for the S1 4.2 OTS, up to 85/125/250/400K for the S1 3.8 OTS - in all they publish plots for 8 different model-types, based on auction results, they say.

What other sources - other than anecdotal - do people use ?

I'll be in Milan on business anyway, not for the Jaguars, but I hear what you say Christopher, and I'll be taking my screwdriver.

http://www.rmsothebys.com/tv16/duemila- ... hc/1087075

Seems a little pessimistic...

paydase wrote:

288gto wrote:
Also note that around this chassis number Jaguar started to use a proper "-" on the head number rather than turning the "1" on its side.
Simon

Would you mean the contrary?
I thought that using the 1 on its side was normal practice.
As also shown e.g. on the head of the white 1964 FHC.

To my knowledge it has been a common practice at Jaguar for some time.
Surely many fellow listers would be surprised checking their engine stamp and find out they do have a horizontal "1" instead of the dash "-". It is the case on my S1 engine.

Original Jaguar chassis punches:

Interesting on yours David that the "7" appears to have a straight back as opposed to a curved one and that the "8" appears to have an equal size top and bottom.

Once again for our overseas members, my comments about a "Rogue" apprentice making a special "-" rather than turning the one on its side, were meant to be humorous and not to be taken seriously. That will teach me!
Again I thought the reference to E bay in 1962 might have been a clue, though my wife does tell me my sense of humour is odd.

Simon