Winder mechanism

[mgcjag]

Hi All.....winder mechanism problem.....window drops down....you wind the handel to raise the window..the large coil spring winds up and tensions...but let the handle go and the spring tension winds the window down....the handle cog cover has been spot welded so someone has been in there before.....iv cut it open and all looks ok no cog wear etc....but its a bit loose in there. ....is there something missing....what acts as the brake when you let the handle go.......any one been in there and have photos.....thanks....Steve

[Gfhug]

Steve, surely the spring should unwind as the window goes up otherwise the spring is trying to wind the window down again. Will look for photo.
Sorry, no photo that would help without taking the door trim off, but if no-one else has a photo will do just that.
But that is how I set up my window winders after working on my doors.
Regards
Geoff

[mgcjag]

Hi Geoff....i may have it slightly wrong...winding down tensions the spring..when i let handle go mechanism goes up...................I have two mechanisms on the bench out of the car so up/down got confusing......on the "worker" i wind the handle and the mechanism operates to go up/down and i can stop anywhere as normal.......on the non worker i wind the handle...the mechanism all moves.....no worn teeth etc....but if i let go of the handle the spring unwinds what iv just wound.......so the question is there must be something that "brakes" the spring tension to stop the window when you let go of the handle......im assuming its in the small houseing of the winder....Steve

[Gfhug]

Steve, I seem to remember that the winder mechanism stops wherever you want whether in or out of the door. I’ve got two in the garage loft from the project car. Let me get them out on Friday and check for you.
From what you’re saying it sounds like a faulty one. How loose does it feel without the spring? Can you compare both without the spring to check for differences of tightness?

Geoff

[mgcjag]

Iv never played with these before.....i dont really want to take the spring off...its doing its job.......as iv said what actually stops the spring.....so the mechanisme can stop in any position. ....very awkward to work on its like a big pair of automatic scissors waiting to have a finger off ....edit...im wondering now if the weight of the glass will hold it when its back in the door.......i only removed them and the locking mechanism to clean them up

[Gfhug]

Steve, when you get to one end of the winding the tension is off the spring and it drops off easily. BTW is this off the 150? Obviously can’t be certain of similarities. But as said will check tomorrow.

Geoff

[colinevans]

Hi Steve
I have the same issue on one my windows that has an aftermarket mechanism installed by a PO. The one with the original spring works perfectly. It seems like there is too much tension in the aftermarket spring which causes the recoil. It’s on my imminent list so I’ll let you know if I find a solution.
Regards Colin

[angelw]

Steve Wrote:

Hi All.....winder mechanism problem.....window drops down....you wind the handel to raise the window..the large coil spring winds up and tensions...but let the handle go and the spring tension winds the window down....the handle cog cover has been spot welded so someone has been in there before.....iv cut it open and all looks ok no cog wear etc....but its a bit loose in there. ....is there something missing....what acts as the brake when you let the handle go.......any one been in there and have photos.....thanks....Steve

Hello Steve,
The spring should coil tighter as the Window is wound down. This does two things:
1. Help resist gravity and aids winding the Window up.
2. Resist gravity and inertia to maintain the Window in any position up from fully down.

I see your car is an S2 2+2 and therefore, the illustration of the Window Winder Mechanism is incorrect in the Parts Book for your car.

SNGB were selling LH Unit as RH and visa versa until I explained to them their error. I believe I Posted quite a detailed article on this matter on this Forum, but for sure on the JL Forum.

The following picture shows the arrangement of the Window Winder as depicted in the Parts Book as being in the Fully Up position, which is totally wrong.



The following picture shows the correct configuration of the Window Winder mechanism in the Window Fully Up position.



The piece of tape applied to door in the picture, indicates where there is a Vibration Damping Bracket attached to the inside of the door. As you will see, there will be profound interference between the Window Winder Mechanism and the this bracket if assembly as in the first picture is attempted, as sown in the following picture:



In all cases, the tail of the Scroll Spring should be tethered to the Restraining Post from below. This will result in the Scroll Spring tightening as the Window is wound down.

I believe the mistake in the Parts Book is a carry over from the S1 2+2, for it can have the Window Winder Mechanism assembled with the door in either configuration shown in the pictures above. The reason for this is that the Inside Door Handle of the S1 sits proud of the Door Trim and therefore, the Remote Lever to the Lock is on the out side of the door. With S2/S3 cars, the Inside Door Handle is recessed into the Door Tim and Door Frame, requiring the Remote Lever to the Lock to be on the inside of the door. With S2/S3 cars, a Vibration Damping Bracket was added to the inside of the Door Frame which brought into play, interference with the Window Winder Mechanism and Vibration Damping Bracket, if assembles as shown in the First Picture.

You will find Window Winder Mechanisms incorrectly assembled in S2/S3 doors as shown in the first picture, but this is only possible by the Numb Nut assembling the door, removing the Vibration Damping Bracket.

You will see from the picture of the inside of the door, studs of the four stub pivot bracket barely reach the inside surface of the door frame before interference between the Vibration Damping Bracket and the Window Winder Mechanism occurs. Accordingly, it's not possible to assemble the Window Winder mechanism configured as shown in the first picture, with the Vibration Damping Bracket in place.


Regards,

Bill

[MarekH]

...as iv said what actually stops the spring.....so the mechanism can stop in any position.

A little friction is what stops the mechanism from moving completely freely, but the big spring is there to counteract gravity, so balances out the weight of the glass. This means it is almost as easy to push the heavy glass up (spring unwinding to assist) as it is pull the glass down (and coil the spring up in the process).

I would check that the mechanism is fully coiled into a ball when the window is fully wound down. If not, then check the orientation of the spring against Bill (and other's) photos.

kind regards
Marek

[mgcjag]

Hi All....thanks for the replies....Bill..i did search and couldnt find the info you posted above on our forum so its a great addition......the units i have on the bench are from an xk150 but very similar.......i dont know if they worked correctly in the car but they are now on the bench......should they work on the bench or do they need the weight of the glass to operate........one mechanism works as i would expect...wind the handle and stop anywhere.....the suspect unit if i wind down the sprng tensions...if i let go of the handle the spring unwinds and springs the mechanism up............so what stops the spring unwinding......as Marek mentioned friction....so im thinking something inside the handle small cog houseing ........i can see this has been worked on before so assuming something not right in there..............will swap over springs today just to see if one is stronger than the other.....but anyone been into that small cog unit?.....Steve

[mgcjag]

So this is where im at.....the winder spindle on the "worker" is stiff to turn so lots of friction to resist the coil spring.....the "non worker"is very loose......iv cut off the cover that had been spot welded as a previous repair...photo shows whats inside.....so am i missing something..a spring or washers maybee....last resort will be to open up the "worker".....Steve

[mgcjag]

Sorted.....now working great.....found a copper washer to take up the free play in the spindle houseing.....rivited houseing back on.....Steve

[colinevans]

Well done and thanks for the pics Steve. Will open mine up and investigate!
Regards Colin

[mgcjag]

Hi Colin......wind the mechanism fully up and get to a position where you have wound the large toothed gear off of the small winder cog. .......then check how loose the winder spindle/small cog is......it should be too stiff to turn with your fingures.......if its loose there isnt enough friction to hold against the coil spring....Steve

[colinevans]

Will do, thanks Steve.

[Gfhug]

Steve, I’m pleased to hear you’re all sorted and with Bill’s write up any photos I could add would be superfluous. This should help others get their regulator set up correctly and how to repair the winder if needed.

Geoff

[Series1 Stu]

Hi Steve

My winders are fitted in the doors but without the drop glass fitted. They work as they should, if a little light, although I would expect the effort to raise them will increase when the glass is in and running in the frames.

You're welcome to have a look.

Regards

[mgcjag]

Thanks for the offer Stuart....im ok that its now working.....Steve

[chris45]

Hi,
This thread has been very useful to me as it has highlighted the fact that my window winder mechanism on my 1968, S1.5, 2+2, appears to have the spring upside down. I put the spring on about 40 years ago and it is only because of this thread that it has come to light....so thank you.
Can I just ask for confirmation though? I have attached a photo of my spring which becomes looser as the window is wound down. (It is the opposite of the parts book image-attached). Can I just remove the spring and put it back on with the lug at the bottom?
Thanks again
Chris

[mgcjag]

Hi Chris.....is it the complete mechanism thats fitted wring as in Bills posts above......or just the spring thats incorrect. .......the spring can be removed and turned so long as you completely untention it first......Steve