The 5 Speed is here……..

Technical advice Q&A

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gtjoey
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#321 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:59 pm

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The car is almost done!
Remember NO tunnel pictures till done
There’s a lot of massaging
Gtjoey1314
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gtjoey
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#322 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:24 am

All done
Going to vacuum bleed the clutch and the brakes next week and we will be done
Except😀Saturday A lot of the massaging will be done!
Almost there guys….
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gtjoey
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#323 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:33 pm

Tomorrow is the big day!
Get ready boys
If you want this 5 speed
What’s coming is what you have to do
Will post when done
Gtjowy1314

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Series1 Stu
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#324 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by Series1 Stu » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:09 pm

Is it just me that thinks this conversion is a bit of a hotch potch? Surely the kit should have been complete or at least have had a set of guidance notes to show what needs doing.

My T5 kit included everything needed, including the propshaft, and there was no need to carve crossmembers or other structural parts. Only to slice the bracket on the left hand side of the transmission tunnel and cut a hole in the right hand side of the tunnel for oil filler access. This was all described in the installation instructions and the grommets etc. included.

:shrug:
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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#325 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:31 pm

Stuart I understand….
Here was my situation which most will understand.
I had one of Pauls t5 in my 66 red convertible .
A wonderful box which is NO longer available including defamation law suits and copy rights
All the others offered TODAY without names are not up to snuff when it comes to quality and reliability.
How long ago did you do your T5?
With that said ALL of my friends that have run the Guy Broad box overall were very happy with the exception of WEDGING it in!
It’s a real box, NOT Mickey Mouse.
So I started the car today and all I have left is bleeding the clutch
Starts wonderful and so Quiet!
The mounting set up transforms the noise and vibration through the car .
It’s dead!
How the stock rubber o ring with a spring held?
I have no idea
There is no bounce
Once all the panels are done I will post pictures!
Great Great day
Once it’s ALL done
I will post everything but again this was almost a NON DIY
Great piece of kit
Gtjoey1314

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#326 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:47 pm

Just a tease

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#327 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:04 am

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Nice image NO?
Going to bed guys…..
Within the week or so we are on the road with digital read outs!

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BobKTX
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#328 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by BobKTX » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:34 pm

Wait a minute....... you cut the cross member and the top of the tunnel??????

How much to those brass balls of yours slow you down? That's amazing Joey. I agreed fully with you despite the occasional skeptics that the cut and welded (as well as steel glued) cross member is not going to be any kind of an issue. In fact, I think an argument can be made that it's stronger now.

But cutting the top of the tunnel (which has no structural value, just aesthetics) takes true guts, for no other reason that hiding it will take some reconfiguration of your interior.

I'm still waiting with baited breath to hear the review of the five speed after you take it out for the patented "GT Joey Test Drive" complete with video (no background music please, YouTube flags my postings of your videos with music for "copyright infringement")

Now that you've told me that you have other modification surprises up your sleeve, this thread will go crazy!!!
____________________________________________

1969 Series 2 FHC - Signal Red - Biscuit Interior
2018 F-Type - Carmen Red - Black Interior
1953 Chevy 5-window Pickup Truck - Jungle Green
2022 Ram 1500 Pickup Truck - Granite

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Series1 Stu
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#329 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by Series1 Stu » Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:35 pm

BobKTX wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:34 pm
In fact, I think an argument can be made that it's stronger now
Go ahead, make the argument. Don't just speculate........
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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DWW
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#330 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by DWW » Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:38 pm

"I'm still waiting with baited breath to hear the review of the five speed after you take it out for the patented "GT Joey Test Drive"

You don't need to wait, I can tell you that I had this upgrade done by Guy Broad and it works great fifth gear is 1:0.83 and gives a 20% reduction in RPM for given speed at std 4th gear and the gear change is as smooth as would be on any modern manual car.

I am not sure what structural or otherwise mods were done during installation but my interior especially over the tunnel externally looks exactly the same as when the car went in for the upgrade.

It will still be interesting to hear/see Joey's take on the quality of drive after having DIY style conversion..
Danny

1962 S1 3.8 FHC (1012/1798)
2015 Range Rover Sport SVR

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#331 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Sun Sep 25, 2022 10:56 pm

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This week
Bleed clutch and adjust the rod so I can drive it
Second if the drive is good! Then close up the massaged openings
Then a surprise swap of the suspension!
Will explain
Once all is done then I will post the actual massage and why
Gtjoey1314

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BobKTX
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#332 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by BobKTX » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:43 am

Series1 Stu wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:35 pm
BobKTX wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:34 pm
In fact, I think an argument can be made that it's stronger now
Go ahead, make the argument. Don't just speculate........
I'll go with the thoughts of the vehicle development engineer - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19058&start=140#p155325
____________________________________________

1969 Series 2 FHC - Signal Red - Biscuit Interior
2018 F-Type - Carmen Red - Black Interior
1953 Chevy 5-window Pickup Truck - Jungle Green
2022 Ram 1500 Pickup Truck - Granite

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#333 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by Series1 Stu » Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:26 am

BobKTX wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:43 am

I'll go with the thoughts of the vehicle development engineer - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=19058&start=140#p155325
In which he admits not being a structural engineer and suggests it's a matter of opinion. Clive carefully caveated his suggestions.

It can easily be demonstrated that the modified section of the crossmember isn't as strong as the original section although I don't think it will have weakened it to the point of failure. That said, it would be reliant on the welding being sound and I'm not convinced that it is particularly good in this instance.

I suppose that if we all wish it to be true then it will be true.........
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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nichmoss
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#334 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by nichmoss » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:27 am

BobKTX wrote:
Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:34 pm
I agreed fully with you despite the occasional skeptics that the cut and welded (as well as steel glued) cross member is not going to be any kind of an issue. In fact, I think an argument can be made that it's stronger now.
As I've said before, it's up to you what mods you make to your cars but, in order to show that this is weaker, perhaps the following will help. I just quickly made a box section at 3 inches square and with a wall of 1.6 mm (thinner than this would be hard to see) but the exact dimensions are not too important as I'm just trying to prove to you that modifying the section like this makes it weaker. All dimensions are mm.

This software (I'm being lazy doing it with software as it is only 30 minutes to calculate by hand, but this is more visual) calculates many things but here, I am interested in the effect of vertical bending of the section - compression at the upper and tension at the lower (or vice-versa).

The original section for a given bending moment shows a stress of 89 N/mm2.
Image

The section with the cutaway has the same area but the stress is now 107 N/mm2 - some 20% higher than the original and so, this section will fail at (approximately) a 20% lower bending moment than the original.
Image

To be fair, I have a huge headstart on you as I trained from 1976 to 1983 to be an aerospace structural engineer and then worked for 35 years in the business so, for me, this is obvious without performing any analysis.

The analysis above follows Engineers Theory of Bending and is taught at the beginning of a structural engineering course as it's one of the base laws - still, trying to explain what's happening on a forum like this is very difficult. The section resists bending by carrying compression in the upper fibres and tension in the lower fibres (or vice-versa) and these stresses are in and out of the screen.

I doubt the 20% reduction in strength is that much in a car not being used to its envelope of loads but my bigger concern is that the load paths are not overlapped so, the section change is abrupt and the small mousehole fillers do nothing as they have no depth in and out of the screen (the load direction). If the new angle shown in the second picture were extended a couple of inches into the original section (towards the seats) then the 20% reduction would be the correct value, however, this was not done so I would say that the section strength is closer to 60% of the original.

I hope this helps.

Cheers, Chris
Chris
1963 3.8 FHC

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gtjoey
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#335 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by gtjoey » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:21 am

Good morning guys!
I'm off today and tomorrow , bonding with my 99 percent stock holder in our family portfolio :bigrin:
Going to walk a bridge and look at early foliage , besides my hands are so swollen from all the work.
Plus the Ferrari in the cool mountains should be wonderful.
This week, we will close up the holes and get this cat on the road.
I appreciate the technical suggestions BUT remember , this has been my last 35 years oF Jaguar E type ownership!
1. DONT PUT RADIAL 205 TIRES THEY WILL BLOW AND FALL OFF THE RIMS AND YOU WILL DIE.
2.MINI HI TORQUE STARTERS WILL STRIP YOUR FLYWHEEL AND GRIND INTO THE TRANSMISSION
3. 1 WIRE GM ALTERNATOR WILL BURN DOWN THE CAR
4. ELECTRONIC IGNITION SUCKS,POINTS ARE MORE RELIABLE. :roll:
5. ELECTRIC FUEL PUMP WILL KEEP RUNNING AND BLOW OUT YOU FOATS LEAK ON ENGINE AND CAUSE MASSIVE FIRE KILLING YOU
6 . 100 OCTANE IS NO GOOD FOR YOUR FUEL SYSTEM , ETHANOL IS FINE, BAHAAAA
7. LED LIGHTS ARE AWASTE FOR THE MONEY, P.S.I USE 80% LESS ENERGY THROUGH MY WIRES AND I CAN SEE.
8.VENTED FRONT DISC BRAKES ARE TOO COOL THEY WILL CRACK AND YOU WILL DIE.
There's so much more but we get the drift.
Once I button up whats left,let me do 10,000miles by spring and see what happens :bigrin:
Now off to rub my wifes feet and have emotional conversations
Love you guys....
Next year we take the ETYPE, ITS BEEN 8 WEEKS WITHOUT DRIVING IT AND ITS KILLING ME!
GTJOEY1314
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Series1 Stu
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#336 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by Series1 Stu » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:55 am

Interesting Chris

I did a similar analysis using a simulation package and got very similar results to you. It's a very basic analysis and doesn't necessarily represent the precise application but I based the dimensions on an approximation of the actual crossmember. I got some pretty pictures to help demonstrate but the numbers are not absolute values - they are there to demonstrate the differences between the scenarios.

First is a representation of the standard crossmember.

Image

Second is a version of the standard crossmember that has been pocketed in a similar manner to Joey's car. Homogenous joints are assumed which means the welds are perfect with full penetration. I'm not sure this is the case with Joey's car.

Image

Finally, the cross member with a section removed but no additional material to replace some strength.

Image

So we concur on the approx. 20% reduction in strength.

Regards
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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#337 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by nichmoss » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:38 pm

That's very neat, Stu. My team used to use Nastran or Ansys for FEM analysis and this looks like a Patran output to me, the same graphical interface we used. I would always do a quick hand calc to make sure the results looked reasonable.

Away from the mouseholes, it looks like the section settles down as I predicted simply but, your better analysis shows that at the start of the cut-out, there is a local stress far higher (orange) at the cut in the upper plate. That gels with my latter comment that without the overlap of load paths, the strength is even further reduced - it's a poor fatigue feature as well.

On aircraft, we anlayse the fatigue of everything and do regular fatigue inspections but that's mainly because we stress far higher and use a lot of aluminium. Steel, as used on our cars, has a fatigue threshold (basically with stresses below that level, you will never have a fatigue issue) so we keep stress levels below that because we never inspect our cars for cracks and so on. That local high stress is not a good thing and could lead to a crack forming.

Anyway, I am sure you already know everything I've written but the effort you've put in might make it clearer to others. Many thanks!

Gtjoey - my intention was certainly not to try and persuade you to do anything different.
nichmoss wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:27 am
As I've said before, it's up to you what mods you make to your cars but, in order to show that this is weaker, perhaps the following will help.
By the way, of your points 1 to 8 and comments that people have given you, apart from items 3 and 7, I don't see any issues as I have the same on my car :bigrin: My alternator upgrade is a Lucas and I've not tried LED lights. Out of interest, my 5 speed is from E-Type fabs and it is a drop in item.

Good luck, Chris
Chris
1963 3.8 FHC

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#338 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by Series1 Stu » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:07 pm

Ha, yes.

I also have implemented all of Joey's listed mods, except for the electronic ignition (yet) and LED headlights, which I think are still illegal in the UK at the moment.

That said, I am doubting the choice of low profile tyres and will likely acquire a set of 185 tyres for comparison when the car finally gets finished.

Regards

PS Chris. That output is from Solidworks Simulation.
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

'62 FHC - Work In (slow) Progress
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
'94 X300 XJR basket case

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#339 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by BobKTX » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:16 pm

Wow, speaking of thread drift........

I once worked with a guy who when you asked him what time it was, felt the need to tell you how watches were made. I'm betting that Joeys welds will be just fine and the car won't crack in half or be 20% more likely to fail in most of our lifetimes.
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1969 Series 2 FHC - Signal Red - Biscuit Interior
2018 F-Type - Carmen Red - Black Interior
1953 Chevy 5-window Pickup Truck - Jungle Green
2022 Ram 1500 Pickup Truck - Granite

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#340 Re: The 5 Speed is here……..

Post by mgcjag » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:18 pm

Definatly not thread drift......good technical data on how the structure of the E type is altered by doing these modifications.......essential for anyone to consider if thinking about fitting this gearbox......Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) & Building a C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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