IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
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- Location: Near Andover, Hampshire,in D.O. Blighty
#21 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Rory, 11.14 on my recently restored by Alan Slawson diff. Nice tight fit.
Could these work if Alan doesn’t have spares?
https://www.lightaero.co.uk/products/article/N403EKPP
Geoff
Could these work if Alan doesn’t have spares?
https://www.lightaero.co.uk/products/article/N403EKPP
Geoff
S2 FHC Light Blue
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
S2 OTS LHD - RHD full restoration
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#22 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Hi Geoff, and thanks for that.
In short, no I don't think so as the special bolts in question need a much closer shank tolerance than would generally be called for in any "bolt" specification, however trick the spec or the certification.
Both the patterns and the originals have a ground surface, problem with the patterns was that despite the care over the grinding finish, their size was off to cock.
I'm chasing SNGB to find out what size theirs actually are, nowadays, and will report back.
In short, no I don't think so as the special bolts in question need a much closer shank tolerance than would generally be called for in any "bolt" specification, however trick the spec or the certification.
Both the patterns and the originals have a ground surface, problem with the patterns was that despite the care over the grinding finish, their size was off to cock.
I'm chasing SNGB to find out what size theirs actually are, nowadays, and will report back.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#23 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Update, SNGB are still selling those undersized 8910 bolts, but now have a pair of my originals (actually 11.15mm) to study and hopefully emulate.
Alain Slawson has none of the fat ones left either, Hutsons just might have.
Alain Slawson has none of the fat ones left either, Hutsons just might have.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#24 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
When I had a stripped bolt that needed replacement a machinist recommended that I get a standard bolt hard chromed to build up the shank to a tight fit. I did not give that a try as I was able to source the correct bolts from a damaged shaft but you might consider looking into that possibility if you are unsuccessful in finding correct ones new or used.
Geoff Allam
67 series1 ots under restoration
67 series1 ots under restoration
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#25 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
I use a quad bike lift to raise the car at the rear .you first need two blocks of wood on it to clear the exhausts .Mine I use a hammer gun on the nut for lifting and it is very stable .
S1 4.2 RHD Bryan
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#26 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Happy to report that SNGB have indeed confirmed their 8910 bolts were NOT the correct size of the originals, BUT have undertaken to manufacture them, and are expecting delivery for the end of September.
Hallelujah.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#27 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
I've just put my 4.2's IRS back in after rebuilding it.
Here's what can go wrong :-) I don't think that this list is complete.
You can put the wishbones in upside down, backwards or on the wrong side, or combinations of these.
You can put the trailing arms on upside down, or put in the big bush upside down or sideways.
You have to put the trailing arms in before the hub carriers as otherwise you can't fit the bolt
You have to put the brakes and the brake rotors on before you put the diff in the cage.
The brake calipers and hydraulic lines can be misassembled wrong handed in a variety of interesting ways.
It's easy to put the hubs on the wrong side so the knock offs undo when you're driving, or not align the split pin hole.
There are 3 shimming jobs that have to be done correctly or the bearings shit themselves.
You can probably put the cage on backwards.
Here's what can go wrong :-) I don't think that this list is complete.
You can put the wishbones in upside down, backwards or on the wrong side, or combinations of these.
You can put the trailing arms on upside down, or put in the big bush upside down or sideways.
You have to put the trailing arms in before the hub carriers as otherwise you can't fit the bolt
You have to put the brakes and the brake rotors on before you put the diff in the cage.
The brake calipers and hydraulic lines can be misassembled wrong handed in a variety of interesting ways.
It's easy to put the hubs on the wrong side so the knock offs undo when you're driving, or not align the split pin hole.
There are 3 shimming jobs that have to be done correctly or the bearings shit themselves.
You can probably put the cage on backwards.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB. 1979 MGB.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB. 1979 MGB.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia
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#28 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Andrew, will paste that list to my bench when reassembling my IRS shortly, and am expecting to be able to add to it despite that.
Great news from SNGB, however, they've made those 8510 bolts to the correct spec and it will no longer be necessary to use retainers on the other ones whilst working on the diff

and nor will it be such a bitch to alter the rear camber, as the new bolts will stay put and behave like studs, only requiring a socket on the nuts, when swapping shims.

SNGB listened, asked me for original samples, and then got the bolts made.
Hats off.
Great news from SNGB, however, they've made those 8510 bolts to the correct spec and it will no longer be necessary to use retainers on the other ones whilst working on the diff

and nor will it be such a bitch to alter the rear camber, as the new bolts will stay put and behave like studs, only requiring a socket on the nuts, when swapping shims.

SNGB listened, asked me for original samples, and then got the bolts made.
Hats off.
Rory
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
3.8 OTS S1 Opalescent Silver Grey - built May 28th 1962
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#29 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Just shows how easy it is to get caught out if you dont measure replacement parts.....just recieved 8 bolts as shown above but from a well known ebay seller who actually had a drawing on the listing detailing shank dimensions a 0.439in....... quite a bit cheaper than SNG..however measured then and they are 0.434in so not an interference fit....no problem returning them..
Steve
Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#30 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Unknown to many,the two lugs of each Rear Wishbone are a different width by circa 0.6mm and when assembled with the suspension assembly, the matching width lugs are diagonally opposite. There is no plausible, mechanical reason for this, and as the Inner Yoke for each side wishbone is the same and only becomes handed when assembled with the other components of the fabricated wishbone, I suspect this different thickness of the lugs came about as a mistake during initial manufacture that was never rectified. As a consequence, buying four Inner Bearing Sleeves from the After Market Jag suppliers results in only two being the correct (perhaps) length.
It’s important that these sleeves be the correct length, for they form part of a linear assembly, that when the nuts on the inner fulcrum shaft are torqued up, should form part of a solid assembly and have the Needle Roller Bearing rotate on the OD of the Sleeves. If the sleeves are too short, there will be unwanted pre-load on the outer faces of the lugs of the wishbone and rather than the Needle Roller bearings rotating on the sleeves, the sleeves can rotate on the fulcrum shaft. If the sleeves are too long, undesirable end float of the wishbone will result.
As well as only one length Bearing Journal Sleeve being available from the usual suppliers, they are considerably softer than those manufactured by the better name bearing manufacturers. The correct length is not available from bearing suppliers: accordingly, I purchase longer than required and machine them to length, the correct length for each different width inner lug of the Rear Wishbone.
The rubber seal for the Inner Fulcrum from the usual suppliers, is way too small on the OD. The ID of this seal should be a close fit on the small diameter Thrust Washer and then a seal retaining ring a close fit on the OD of the seal. The following picture shows an After Market Seal assembled with the Thrust Washer and the profoundly, excessive clearance with the Retaining Ring.

An Aftermarket Rubber Seal ring is not available with the correct OD, therefore, you’re stuck with what’s available. The following picture shows my fix, via a thicker walled Retaining Ring I manufacture, to make up the deficit of the seal’s OD.

Regards,
Bill
It’s important that these sleeves be the correct length, for they form part of a linear assembly, that when the nuts on the inner fulcrum shaft are torqued up, should form part of a solid assembly and have the Needle Roller Bearing rotate on the OD of the Sleeves. If the sleeves are too short, there will be unwanted pre-load on the outer faces of the lugs of the wishbone and rather than the Needle Roller bearings rotating on the sleeves, the sleeves can rotate on the fulcrum shaft. If the sleeves are too long, undesirable end float of the wishbone will result.
As well as only one length Bearing Journal Sleeve being available from the usual suppliers, they are considerably softer than those manufactured by the better name bearing manufacturers. The correct length is not available from bearing suppliers: accordingly, I purchase longer than required and machine them to length, the correct length for each different width inner lug of the Rear Wishbone.
The rubber seal for the Inner Fulcrum from the usual suppliers, is way too small on the OD. The ID of this seal should be a close fit on the small diameter Thrust Washer and then a seal retaining ring a close fit on the OD of the seal. The following picture shows an After Market Seal assembled with the Thrust Washer and the profoundly, excessive clearance with the Retaining Ring.

An Aftermarket Rubber Seal ring is not available with the correct OD, therefore, you’re stuck with what’s available. The following picture shows my fix, via a thicker walled Retaining Ring I manufacture, to make up the deficit of the seal’s OD.

Regards,
Bill
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#31 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Hi Bill...yes....I thought the bearing tube issue has been discussed in the past....however I have xj6 wishbones on the bench at the moment and the difference in thickness of the two inner lugs where the needle bearings fit is extreme....one side of each of each wishbone being 0.9mm thicker than the other(diagonally opposing) .....very visible to the naked eye....Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#32 Re: IRS Stands, Diff-Half shafts, Shimming, IRS rubbers, IRS brake-pipes, all things IRS.
Hello Steve,
It was suggested in another Forum that my finding may be a one off. For the number I've measured, that is clearly not the case and the reason I believe it was a manufacturing issue that was never picked up, or deemed not important enough to change the tooling. Nowadays, the machining on these yokes would be done on a Machining Centre, where fixing a dimension issue is relatively easy. Back when these parts were being made, parts such as this were machined using purpose built, or adapted semi auto machines where their purpose was limited to the one part and generally more difficult to change part dimensions.
There are examples where Jaguar has got it wrong, at least in a multitude of parts and service manuals and the error has persisted through to the end of production. Some Jaguar parts suppliers are still selling right of left and visa versa door window regulators for long wheel base S2 and all S3 E Type Jaguar. When I advised one Jaguar parts supplier of their error, their in house engineer contacted me and started the conversation with "we have to follow what Jaguar specified". I stopped him there and explained why that won't make the part any more possible to assemble with the door, and by the end of the conversation, convinced him that a change would have to be made. The change in this case was simple by just changing the part number stamped on each.
However, pictures of the left for right hand window regulators on some Jaguar parts suppliers web sites indicate that there are some selling the wrong handed part.
Regards,
Bill
It was suggested in another Forum that my finding may be a one off. For the number I've measured, that is clearly not the case and the reason I believe it was a manufacturing issue that was never picked up, or deemed not important enough to change the tooling. Nowadays, the machining on these yokes would be done on a Machining Centre, where fixing a dimension issue is relatively easy. Back when these parts were being made, parts such as this were machined using purpose built, or adapted semi auto machines where their purpose was limited to the one part and generally more difficult to change part dimensions.
There are examples where Jaguar has got it wrong, at least in a multitude of parts and service manuals and the error has persisted through to the end of production. Some Jaguar parts suppliers are still selling right of left and visa versa door window regulators for long wheel base S2 and all S3 E Type Jaguar. When I advised one Jaguar parts supplier of their error, their in house engineer contacted me and started the conversation with "we have to follow what Jaguar specified". I stopped him there and explained why that won't make the part any more possible to assemble with the door, and by the end of the conversation, convinced him that a change would have to be made. The change in this case was simple by just changing the part number stamped on each.
However, pictures of the left for right hand window regulators on some Jaguar parts suppliers web sites indicate that there are some selling the wrong handed part.
Regards,
Bill
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