Can i have another rant :-)
My attention of late has turnt to the interior of the S2 FHC and to be fair, it's in remarkably good order.
The headlining could do with replacement as it has some "spotting" which i cannot seem to clean off and the seats are getting a bit worn.
When i say worn, the seat foams etc all seem very good but the leather is very hard and there's alot of discolouration.
So, passenger side seat removed and dismantled. Seat runners have been refurbished and the mechanisms i have blasted in my cabinet and have been re-finished.
I have pontificated replacing the leather but the cost of the seat covers are extremely expensive in my opinion compared to other classic parts from a differing marque. Example: MGB leather seat covers are circa ?225 - E-type circa ?650
Ok, i appreciate that MGB classic parts are probably run in larger numbers but the E-Type restoration scene and the requirement for replacement leather seat covers is fairly large?
Having come from the Ferrari world - expensive parts are nothing new to me and i appreciate that on items that are produced in extremely low numbers - there is a cost. I cannot help but think us "enthusiasts" often mean "open cheque book" to many parts suppliers?
As it happens, after a thorough clean and many coats of leather conditioner the leather is now very soft and in good order. They simply await a few coats of Gliptone Dark Blue leather dye applied from an airbrush (which i have astounding results from on Ferrari Crema interiors)
Rant Over
Sorry - a quick question. Is the back / rear of the upper seat cover Vinyl as opposed to leather?
Rubbish aftermarket parts
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Candellara
Topic author - Posts: 328
- Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:06 am
- Location: South East
#42
Hi,
I can't help but agree with you on the cost of upholstery. At the end of the day there is little difference between an MGB, E-type or GT6 - (my previous project, for which I had seat covers made in leather with a hard to find matching colour piping in purple, all for a couple of hundred quid). This is especially true since, as you say the rear faces and seat base surrounds are in fact vinyl, which is a little cheaper and easier to work than leather.
Also, given the fact that seat covers are pretty much hand-made to a pattern, then the cost should not depend on which car they are for - you merely pick up the pattern and make covers to match, there isn't really a chance of "mass production" in hand made items. As you say, there are certainly enough E-types out there to ensure many upholsterers have available patterns and you can always use the old covers anyway.
Like you, I restored the leather of my seats even though it looked dry beyond repair and now get a lot of appreciative comments about them and their patina - maybe people are being kind, but given the huge amount of work I had to do on the rest of the car, it is nice to have something of the original car to look at and it cost a fraction of that of new seats - in fact the whole interior was done for less than the cost of the new seat covers you quote.
Here's a thought for someone - try taking just your seats in to an upholsterer and lie about what car they come from to see if it is cheaper!
Rant joined and now over!!
Regards,
Simon
I can't help but agree with you on the cost of upholstery. At the end of the day there is little difference between an MGB, E-type or GT6 - (my previous project, for which I had seat covers made in leather with a hard to find matching colour piping in purple, all for a couple of hundred quid). This is especially true since, as you say the rear faces and seat base surrounds are in fact vinyl, which is a little cheaper and easier to work than leather.
Also, given the fact that seat covers are pretty much hand-made to a pattern, then the cost should not depend on which car they are for - you merely pick up the pattern and make covers to match, there isn't really a chance of "mass production" in hand made items. As you say, there are certainly enough E-types out there to ensure many upholsterers have available patterns and you can always use the old covers anyway.
Like you, I restored the leather of my seats even though it looked dry beyond repair and now get a lot of appreciative comments about them and their patina - maybe people are being kind, but given the huge amount of work I had to do on the rest of the car, it is nice to have something of the original car to look at and it cost a fraction of that of new seats - in fact the whole interior was done for less than the cost of the new seat covers you quote.
Here's a thought for someone - try taking just your seats in to an upholsterer and lie about what car they come from to see if it is cheaper!
Rant joined and now over!!
Regards,
Simon
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#43
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this.
There is a big difference between an MGB or GT6 interior compared to an E-type FHC.
It's indeed not a matter of "mass-production" but more in the methods used, the time it takes, and how hard it is to recover the seats and the rest of the trim. And making a cover and trimming a 4.2 e-type seat to perfection is not an easy thing by any standard.
Material cost isn't the big issue, a good leather hide will set you back between ?150-250, and you only need one to do an e-type.
You can get seats relatively decently trimmed by a general car upholsterer, sure, there will be new leather and new covers that fit reasonably well.
But it stops there.
If you want an interior that has the quality and feel of the original this will not work.. at all.
Most E-type's I've seen on the continent and classic car shows have new interiors, but they're a far cry from the 'real thing'.
I think most people, especially outside the UK, have simply no idea how an e-type interior should look and feel like, since there are almost no cars out there that either have an original interior that isn't tired (which is almost impossible for that matter), or a correctly trimmed interior by someone who knows how it's done and with the attention to detail and patience it takes.
In fact the only cars I've seen in person that had great looking interiors were either trimmed by Mick Turley, Eric Suffolk, or at CMC, although there probably others out there that master it too.
That said, I am unpleasantly difficult to please when it comes to interiors, you can ask Mick Turley how anal I can be on what leather is close enough, (I have my hides custom made by Jonathan Connolly to exactly match the colour of the vinyl and made to the texture I like)
You don't have to take my word for it however, visit Mick Turley, Eric Suffolk or CMC's workshop and go see the difference for yourself.
Axel
There is a big difference between an MGB or GT6 interior compared to an E-type FHC.
It's indeed not a matter of "mass-production" but more in the methods used, the time it takes, and how hard it is to recover the seats and the rest of the trim. And making a cover and trimming a 4.2 e-type seat to perfection is not an easy thing by any standard.
Material cost isn't the big issue, a good leather hide will set you back between ?150-250, and you only need one to do an e-type.
You can get seats relatively decently trimmed by a general car upholsterer, sure, there will be new leather and new covers that fit reasonably well.
But it stops there.
If you want an interior that has the quality and feel of the original this will not work.. at all.
Most E-type's I've seen on the continent and classic car shows have new interiors, but they're a far cry from the 'real thing'.
I think most people, especially outside the UK, have simply no idea how an e-type interior should look and feel like, since there are almost no cars out there that either have an original interior that isn't tired (which is almost impossible for that matter), or a correctly trimmed interior by someone who knows how it's done and with the attention to detail and patience it takes.
In fact the only cars I've seen in person that had great looking interiors were either trimmed by Mick Turley, Eric Suffolk, or at CMC, although there probably others out there that master it too.
That said, I am unpleasantly difficult to please when it comes to interiors, you can ask Mick Turley how anal I can be on what leather is close enough, (I have my hides custom made by Jonathan Connolly to exactly match the colour of the vinyl and made to the texture I like)
You don't have to take my word for it however, visit Mick Turley, Eric Suffolk or CMC's workshop and go see the difference for yourself.
Axel
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#44
Hi Axel (and all),
I'm going to reserve the right to disagree with you about this, but all are entitled to their own opinion. I have trimmed both an E-type and a GT6, plus many other cars and whilst I admit there is a difference in the interiors as a whole, the seats are not actually all that different, in fact the seat cushions for the small Triumphs are considerably more complicated than those for an E-type (at least, for my Series III - for which I have a couple of seat cushions currently sitting in my workshop), as they are made from several pieces of foam of differing firmness, with material backing for extra support. E-type seats are actually simpler in my experience.
I didn't fully strip down my seats, but did so far enough (and have seen enough stripped seats) to know that construction is no more complicated that those of contemporary "lesser" vehicles.
The leather from which my GT6 seats were covered was the equal of any I have seen in re-trimmed or original E-types and as I say, they were custom made, in the UK (before I left for Australia).
I will be the first to admit my car is not as well trimmed as a professional job, mainly because I was forced to buy trim from two sources, which don't quite match due to time pressures and availability of material before I emigrated to Australia (too complicated to go in to details!). However, no-one has ever commented on the trim being less than very good (and some have been critical of other aspects, believe me!). This is despite being in a local club where the majority of cars are professionally restored and where I know of no-one that attempted their own trimming. Not a single piece of my car is professionally trimmed, save the couple of pieces which are still as left the factory, oh and the headlining, which was trimmed when I had the excellent Peter Harvey restore and refiit the Webasto Sunroof, which, including his travel costs to my house, was less than the cost of the seat covers (supplied, but not fitted) in the earlier post. Headlinings are my least favourite piece of trim and the sunroof was beyond me, especially in my tight timescale.
I don't believe there is a great deal of difference between the standard of trim (originally) between most UK cars of the time; today, the majority of cars (of all descriptions, but E-types in particular) are actually restored to a higher quality than they left the showroom; at least, as far as decent parts availabilty allows - which was the original point of this thread!
As I say, feel free to disagree, but my actual experience, at least as far as the slightly less luxuriously finished Series III goes, definitely shows me that the seats of GT6, Spitfire and E-type are similarly difficult to trim and remember that in the post I made, for my GT6 I had asked for custom made leather trimmed seats with custom piping, rather than standard vinyl seat covers in a standard range of colours. What I got and fitted were high quality excellently fitting covers for around a third the cost I was quoted for standard E-type seat covers.
Anyway, I stand by my opinion that E-type owners get quoted higher costs because, in the main, they are prepared and can afford to pay them - controversial? Maybe, but I have restored a lot of other cars and walk away laughing at some of the costs I was quoted when I mentioned "E-type". Shop around, you won't be disappointed!
Regards,
Simon
I'm going to reserve the right to disagree with you about this, but all are entitled to their own opinion. I have trimmed both an E-type and a GT6, plus many other cars and whilst I admit there is a difference in the interiors as a whole, the seats are not actually all that different, in fact the seat cushions for the small Triumphs are considerably more complicated than those for an E-type (at least, for my Series III - for which I have a couple of seat cushions currently sitting in my workshop), as they are made from several pieces of foam of differing firmness, with material backing for extra support. E-type seats are actually simpler in my experience.
I didn't fully strip down my seats, but did so far enough (and have seen enough stripped seats) to know that construction is no more complicated that those of contemporary "lesser" vehicles.
The leather from which my GT6 seats were covered was the equal of any I have seen in re-trimmed or original E-types and as I say, they were custom made, in the UK (before I left for Australia).
I will be the first to admit my car is not as well trimmed as a professional job, mainly because I was forced to buy trim from two sources, which don't quite match due to time pressures and availability of material before I emigrated to Australia (too complicated to go in to details!). However, no-one has ever commented on the trim being less than very good (and some have been critical of other aspects, believe me!). This is despite being in a local club where the majority of cars are professionally restored and where I know of no-one that attempted their own trimming. Not a single piece of my car is professionally trimmed, save the couple of pieces which are still as left the factory, oh and the headlining, which was trimmed when I had the excellent Peter Harvey restore and refiit the Webasto Sunroof, which, including his travel costs to my house, was less than the cost of the seat covers (supplied, but not fitted) in the earlier post. Headlinings are my least favourite piece of trim and the sunroof was beyond me, especially in my tight timescale.
I don't believe there is a great deal of difference between the standard of trim (originally) between most UK cars of the time; today, the majority of cars (of all descriptions, but E-types in particular) are actually restored to a higher quality than they left the showroom; at least, as far as decent parts availabilty allows - which was the original point of this thread!
As I say, feel free to disagree, but my actual experience, at least as far as the slightly less luxuriously finished Series III goes, definitely shows me that the seats of GT6, Spitfire and E-type are similarly difficult to trim and remember that in the post I made, for my GT6 I had asked for custom made leather trimmed seats with custom piping, rather than standard vinyl seat covers in a standard range of colours. What I got and fitted were high quality excellently fitting covers for around a third the cost I was quoted for standard E-type seat covers.
Anyway, I stand by my opinion that E-type owners get quoted higher costs because, in the main, they are prepared and can afford to pay them - controversial? Maybe, but I have restored a lot of other cars and walk away laughing at some of the costs I was quoted when I mentioned "E-type". Shop around, you won't be disappointed!
Regards,
Simon
Regards,
Simon
Series III FHC
Simon
Series III FHC
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#45 dodgy parts
Rear fulcrum irs shafts 40 thou oversize
rear diff oil seal - shaft hole 30 thou oversize
new brake bottles - leak
new clutch bottle - leak
front brake disc nuts - wrong thread
chrome grille (above v12 badge) rubbish chrome and fitting snapped when applying negligable torque
result - had a mate of mine ship some spares in from the states and they were spot on
not very happy with the uk main line supplier of e type parts
jon
rear diff oil seal - shaft hole 30 thou oversize
new brake bottles - leak
new clutch bottle - leak
front brake disc nuts - wrong thread
chrome grille (above v12 badge) rubbish chrome and fitting snapped when applying negligable torque
result - had a mate of mine ship some spares in from the states and they were spot on
not very happy with the uk main line supplier of e type parts
jon
1974 ser 3
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#46
Since the topic seems to be about the "quality" of aftermarket spares there is one other aspect to all of this that I have long suspected but can't confirm regarding copyright.
Most of these parts are made so as they are not identical to the originals (even though NOS originals are available as patterns) so that they can't be taken to court by the original manufacturer over copyright infringement.
The fact is that they may LOOK similar and and can be made to fit the original application they are not EXACT copies. Therefore the manufacturers can't take them to task for copying originals and infringing copyright.
To make the parts identical would most likely require a licensing agreement with the original manufacturer which would probably prohibit the manufacture by the pattern parts company due to cost.
When restoring old cars one should try to source NOS parts where possible or refurbish and restore the originals as they fit the car originally.
This has become an accepted problem and not one that shows any signs of going away soon sadly.
Most of these parts are made so as they are not identical to the originals (even though NOS originals are available as patterns) so that they can't be taken to court by the original manufacturer over copyright infringement.
The fact is that they may LOOK similar and and can be made to fit the original application they are not EXACT copies. Therefore the manufacturers can't take them to task for copying originals and infringing copyright.
To make the parts identical would most likely require a licensing agreement with the original manufacturer which would probably prohibit the manufacture by the pattern parts company due to cost.
When restoring old cars one should try to source NOS parts where possible or refurbish and restore the originals as they fit the car originally.
This has become an accepted problem and not one that shows any signs of going away soon sadly.
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#47 rubbish parts
I agree with most of the comments, but the real problem is the fact you say Jaguar add 25% mention E Type add another 25%.
The rear brake seals for my 65 FHC, cost next to nothing as they were supplied for a dumper truck.
Please dont ask what the part No is, it was supplied to me by X missies
familys motor factor.
The point is that a lot of the parts were used on other cars, you just have to know which ones.
As they say knowledge is power.
The rear brake seals for my 65 FHC, cost next to nothing as they were supplied for a dumper truck.
Please dont ask what the part No is, it was supplied to me by X missies
familys motor factor.
The point is that a lot of the parts were used on other cars, you just have to know which ones.
As they say knowledge is power.
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#48
154WHU, you also make a very valid point.
I didn't mention the aspect of cross listing parts as usually the parts cross listed for other applications are original OEM parts as supplied to Jaguar as well as the other manufacturers listed.
For example rear axle U joints are the same as for a Chevrolet pick up truck drive shaft, supplied by Hardy Spicer and cost about one quarter of the Jaguar listed u-joint price...the part is the same for both.
This works for items not specific to a Jaguar but when it comes to items that only fit a Jag or are entirely specific to one, then all the other comments apply.
I was a parts man (stores man) at a Jaguar dealership for close to ten years and am familiar with the situation you speak of.
But sad to say the pattern parts are still crap for the most part.
Cheers,
Stephen
I didn't mention the aspect of cross listing parts as usually the parts cross listed for other applications are original OEM parts as supplied to Jaguar as well as the other manufacturers listed.
For example rear axle U joints are the same as for a Chevrolet pick up truck drive shaft, supplied by Hardy Spicer and cost about one quarter of the Jaguar listed u-joint price...the part is the same for both.
This works for items not specific to a Jaguar but when it comes to items that only fit a Jag or are entirely specific to one, then all the other comments apply.
I was a parts man (stores man) at a Jaguar dealership for close to ten years and am familiar with the situation you speak of.
But sad to say the pattern parts are still crap for the most part.
Cheers,
Stephen
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#49 Cross ref parts
So that is a good thought
Could a page be made to show parts that are supplied for other cars that are relevant to ours ? :D
Could a page be made to show parts that are supplied for other cars that are relevant to ours ? :D
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PeterCrespin
- Posts: 4561
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#50
Www.Jag-lovers.org has a parts interchange listing covering many models though not every part, obviously. Dig around on the site.
Pete
Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas
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