Paint shop

[Erikantwerp]

Hi all,

I have a few questions regarding paint shops:

Do you know some reliable paint shop addresses either in the south of UK, or near London (or if at all possible in Belgium) who can really really do a good job ?

Do you have any idea what such a job would cost ? (considering that you start from a sound and painted FHC car but where you feel that it should be "freshened up" as the bonnet and the rest of the car have been painted separately and do not fully match) I do not know what the best way would be, a full bare metal respray or are their other options in such case. Many thx for your advice and cost estimates on either option

cheers
Erik

[andyp]

Erik

Our old friend Harry is pretty close to the Ferry /Tunnel.

Andy

[christopher storey]

A bare metal respray will cost , if done properly, somewhere in the ? 7,000 region, and there are some shops who would charge a great deal more than that. To freshen up the topcoat will be very much cheaper, but whether it will produce the result you want is not certain

[1954Etype]

Hi all,

I have a few questions regarding paint shops:

Do you know some reliable paint shop addresses either in the south of UK, or near London (or if at all possible in Belgium) who can really really do a good job ?

Do you have any idea what such a job would cost ? (considering that you start from a sound and painted FHC car but where you feel that it should be "freshened up" as the bonnet and the rest of the car have been painted separately and do not fully match) I do not know what the best way would be, a full bare metal respray or are their other options in such case. Many thx for your advice and cost estimates on either option

cheers
Erik

Erik

why are you narrowing it down to the South? Surely once you are over here that is the most difficult bit done? I am having my tub sprayed in the North of England and as Christopher says, it will be around 7k.

[MarkE]

There are two approaches you can take, Erik.

The ?smarten up? approach. This leaves most of your current paint in place, and just prepares your current paintwork to take another layer of primer filler and topcoat. This can work, and work very well, dependant on how many layers of paint the car already has, what type of paint it is, and the stability of the existing paint / repairs under the surface. Quite often, disturbing the existing paint layer and adding a new coat can create reactions in the new paint surface. These may come out straight away, in which case they can be fixed, or they may take weeks or even many months to appear. If the paint shop finds many layers of paint, and they start to react, the job can end up costing as much as a bare-metal repaint.

The ?bare metal? approach. This gets rid of all old paint so than no reactions can occur?IF DONE PROPERLY. However, in many bare-metal repaints, the detail and hard-to-reach areas are not stripped. For example, the flange area around the tailgate / boot, the ?A? and ?B? posts, the roof gutters, around the headlamp flanges etc. etc. If left in original paint, these unseen areas can react just the same as a ?smarten-up? job, and just as unseen, damp can form and rust develop within a couple of years of the work being done. I?ve seen a couple of so called bare metal repaints that have done just this, and the only remedy is to do it all again, only this time properly. The problem area is where the old paint meets the bare metal...all old paint layers are revealed as the old paint is 'feathered' so that it blends into the new surface.

The problem is the time taken to do the detail work. Once the lights and chrome-work have been removed, it will only take a day to strip 99% of the paint from the body using an orbital sanding machine. Then the rest of the stripping has to be done by hand, and this can take many more days, even a couple of weeks. If not done you could well encounter problems that are worse than a smarten-up job, as wherever the old paint still exists, each layer of the previous paintwork is exposed to the new paint, hugely increasing the likelihood of reaction somewhere on the car. There are primers that act as ?sealers / neutralisers? for this effect, which simply cover up the existing layers, but their success is limited.

Erik, do you know what paint the car has had in the past? If, for example, it had a proper bare-metal re-paint 10 or 15 years ago, then a ?freshen-up? new top-coat is probably the best way to go. If, like many cars, it has had 4 or 5 or 6 re-paints on top of each other, then maybe now?s the time to take them all off and start from a clean base. Many top re-finishers won?t just do a freshen-up job, as they couldn?t guarantee the results, and hence, couldn?t put their name to it.

As for costs, my S3 was ?8k 5 years ago, as a drive in / drive out job?i.e., I did no prep work at all. That was with Alan Proctor in Nottingham, a bare metal re-paint, with engine in situ, and included a new windscreen, rubbers and door rubbers. The Coupe would be about ?9k on an equivalent basis, but as my Coupe was a bare shell when painted, and I did a lot of the monkey work, I can?t really compare what I paid to have that painted. There is a fair bit more detail prep on the Coupe compared to the convertible because of the window apertures and the roof gutters.

[Erikantwerp]

Dear Mark, Andy, Christopher,
Many thx for your useful comments.
I have already contacted Harry to get his point of view and will be considering the different options.

FI, I know the car had a bare metal total respray in 2002 and thereafter one other coat (no baremetal). Bottomline, I am not sure as to what is underneath it all. The paint now looks all right but the carmen red color of the bonnet is slightly off with the rest of the car.

I am franly a little at loss what to do. Either go for a "light" respray now, or wait for a couple of years and go for the full monty or do nothing for now and see in a couple of years.

In any event, thx for your support !!

cheers
Erik

[MarkE]

If the car was bare-metal painted in 2002, and you cannot find any reaction, then it's a fair bet that you have a solid foundation. 6 years is a long time for any problems to surface. It will almost certainly have been refinished in 2 pack, and there won't be any strange mixtures of paint types that some cars suffer from.

If it all looks OK, I would just have the paintwork lightly rubbed down and a new top coat applied.

[andyp]

I'm with Mark on this one Erik. If it was taken back to the metal in 2002 all you should need now is a fresh topcoat to get a nice even colour and shine all over.

This talk of paint got me thinking. My car had a respray in 66 when new as the first owner couldn't get it in the colour he wanted. It was then given a pretty horrible (but thick) blow over in 1989 when it came home to the UK. Not really surprising that it is looking a little tired in places :)

Andy

[Heuer]

The legislation requiring the banning of traditional paint systems (high VOC cellulose, acrylics etc) did not come into force until something like 2005 seem to recall. Even then many businesses were given a period of grace to install the necessary extraction equipment and owners were 'reluctant' to make waste any pre-regulation supplies they had in stock. Basically a car repainted in 2002 could have been done in enamel, cellulose, acrylic two pack, oven cured acrylic, catalyst cured acrylic, polyurethane, urethane, water solvent or the now ubiquitous low solvent two or three coat 'base/clear' so worth finding out who did the work. Apart from good preparation it is wise to repaint the car with the most modern two pack (or 2K) paint you can find as these have extremely low levels of solvent which makes reaction with the old finish unlikely. Painting on top of an existing finish means an increase in overall coat thickness so you begin to lose definition in the car's lines and curves so a bare metal re-paint is always preferable.

[vipergts]

I'm having mine painted at the moment but I can tell you it will cost considerably more that 10k. I know what is involved in an absolute top class repaint. I know there are people that can do it many times cheaper but you get what you pay for.

You really only want to do the job once....it's a major pain in the butt. Do the job properly from the off.

[Erikantwerp]

Hi guys,

many thx for all of your comments. I am in any event going to consult with Harry on this and show him the car. You have all made very good comments and frankly, I do not know for sure the quality of the paint that was used back in 2002, so probably it is indeed going to be an all or nothing job.

again, many thx fora ll of your feedback, much appreciated.

cheers
Erik

PS: Please accept my sincere best wishes for a peaceful Christmas and a healthy and exciting 2009 to you all and your families !!

[Heuer]

To have the job done properly is indeed expensive - circa ?12,000 + VAT at trade prices. It can be done though:




No lead or filler used, all panels being planished and filed. The attention to detail and finish was incredible. Three hundred man hours involved

[MarkE]

It?s very hard to compare like with like on grounds of cost alone. A chum recently had a quote to have his Ferrari 275 repainted at just over ?30k. We went up to see the shop where the job was going to be done?glitzy reception, big name and very impressive. And a receptionist in a suit. We sneaked into the prep area, and found a 16 year old stripping the cars and the paintwork, a 20 year old doing the metal prep and primer coats, then a bit of experience to flatten off ready for the guide and top coats, then the 20 year old again for the top coat and polish. The hourly rate was ?80 plus VAT.

You can still find one man bands, perhaps with an ?apprentice?, who will charge considerably less than half that, and provide a much higher level of attention to detail and quality of finish. Bottom line is that it?s not what you pay, it what sort of job gets done. When you find one you will have to wait a couple of years to get the job started, and it will take a few months elapsed time, but you?ll have the satisfaction of supporting a real craftsman, and not just some marketing hype organisation who pay their lads ?8 an hour.

Alan Proctor is a great example of the one-man band sort of workmanship. You can see the results of his work in my S3, and in quite a few cars at the JDHT museum?half his time used to be spent repainting the museum cars. He did what was required to be done and no more, as the bulkhead and frames were in perfect condition, as they left the factory. The boot floor, and main floors likewise. The result is a perfect marriage between restored and original, which gives a superb ?factory? look to the car?but of course, that?s what he?s been doing for many years. Very few ?big ticket? re-finishers will go to that trouble.



In contrast, my Coupe had to be completely gutted as it had been re-painted at some time, and every square inch of the car stripped, prepared and re-painted. Including the floors underneath and the wheel arches! The amount of work was something like 4 times that spent on the S3, but only because it needed it. If the floors, bulkhead and frames were as good as the S3 ones, I certainly wouldn?t have gone as far as I did.




Which one was done ?properly?? I think that they both were, but with very different approaches, out of necessity. One looks factory-fresh, and the other looks a little over-restored. However, she?ll be on the road soon, and will have some of that freshness replaced by a patina of use!

So the bottom line, for me at least, is to have the work done on the car that it requires, not what some bloke in a suit in a hyped-up ?marque specialist? refinishers tells you it needs. Find someone who actually still does the work on cars, and who has been recommended by others. And you don?t need an E Type specialist, or a Jaguar specialist, or any other marque specialist to paint an E Type. Repainting a car is a generic skill, whether it?s a 1959 Heinkel, an MGB or a new Aston.

I feel better now?bring on the revolution?.support the workers!!

[vipergts]

Mark....You are spot on with what you say.

I use a modern glitzy paintshop for my modern stuff because that's what the understand.

The etype is being done by a one man band in a shed who understands classics and only does mainly Astons and Jags.

The car will be stripped to metal on the outside inc under the bonnet and front wheel arches. Engine frames left original as is the bulkhead and inner boot etc.

Just a first class paint job and not a restoration thus retaining it's all important originality

[Erikantwerp]

Hi guys,

I am with you on the principle. Its the "in practice" that really frightens me, i.E. it is one thing to say "I am wiling to spend good money on doing it right" , but is another to actually find someone you (i) trust completely and (ii) gives you a fair upfront explanation on what will be done, how it will be done, what possible surprises could be and what they mean and (ii) who can stick to a (not necessarily tight) timetable.

What I want to say is that I hear you guys and I fully agree with the basic approach. However, it also frightens the hell out of me as there are so man "variables". First there is the issue of finding the right small scale shop who knows what it is doing. Ok, lets say you find that. Then, there is the issue that I fully understand what will be done, what is included in the price, what not, and to have a good idea of what the minimum and maximum "prices" are just to be able to assess how far you can go and in order to ensure that you do not fall in the "money pitt" and end up worse then you started because you end up with something half baked.

Sorry for the longwinded comments here, and your insights are most appreciated but it is a big undertaken and it has indeed to be done right by he right person . My experience sofar has been that there are many "just trust me" types around which scares the hell out of me (oeps, said that already :)

Anyway, any good addresses, tips on what to ask, to look out for, more then welcome ,even by private message.

cheers
Erik

PS thx for the pictures, now I am definitely green of jalousy... : )

[vipergts]

Fair point and I understand your concerns.

With my E I know what I have and so does the painter which helps a lot.

If you speak to Harry he will introduce you to his painter so that he can go through the finer points and address your converns........He really is a good guy. I know.

As an aside I have a 68 440R/T Charger that is currently under-going and absolute nut and bolt. When I dropped the car off to the Paintshop the proprietor said "don't ask how much or how long" I left the car with him as I know he was highly recommended and I'd seen the quality of his work. The truth is that with any car it's an unknown which is why I couldn't get a price from this guy.

It's been 2.5 years and a lot of Money as he charges me every so often detailing the work done.

You pay your money and you takes your choice...horses for courses and all.

I believe the guy I have left my E with to be one of the best there is and he's brave enough to give me an up-front price too.

Pic of Charger for those who are into old bangers.