Remagnetising Tacho generator. Job done

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ETTony
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#1 Remagnetising Tacho generator. Job done

Post by ETTony » Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:11 pm

Chaps my Tacho is indicating some 30% low.
It is probably the magnet getting weak ?
I have not found anything in the archives about remagnetising the thing.

So has anyone successfully remagnetised their tacho rotor ?
Failing that who is the man that can do this for us.
There is quite a bit of info about magnetos, they seem to use horseshoe magnets ?
:scratchheadyellow:

thanks Tony
Last edited by ETTony on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tony in Devon
1967 Series 1, 4.2, OTS, RHD, Black.

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#2 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by cactusman » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:14 pm

I think you might find it tricky. New generator parts are available but the quality is suspect. The other alternative is to fit a conversion board to your tachometer so that it measures the frequency of the a.c. voltage from the generator rather than just rectify the a.c. voltage. The frequency is engine speed dependent and the absolute voltage your generator produces becomes irrelevant. There is a thread on here somewhere and I believe conversion boards are offered on eBay at times. I did mine based on the thread here that I can't find :banghead: ...works fine...
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#3 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by Heuer » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:15 pm

Thread here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=292

Spiyda make the boards (but check with them first) although they need a connection to the coil as per the S2: https://www.spiyda.com/magento/index.php

Other interesting stuff:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/93jnniqovejj0 ... n.pdf?dl=1
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
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#4 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by cactusman » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:15 am

Thanks David...I could not find it.
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#5 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by abowie » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:16 am

Will the Spidya boards work with the tachos that use the AC generator?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB. 1979 MGB.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
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#6 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by ETTony » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:07 am

Thanks team, food for thought :rvrence:

I had never thought of using a table fork to ease off instrument needles
Tony in Devon
1967 Series 1, 4.2, OTS, RHD, Black.

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#7 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by Heuer » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:18 am

abowie wrote:Will the Spidya boards work with the tachos that use the AC generator?
It is designed to convert an RVI tach to an RVC meaning you notionally need to get the feed from the coil as per the S2. However I have spoken to them and they think you could still use the tach generator for the feed. Unfortunately the internal board will not fit the S1 tach so they recommend the external unit which does not require dismantling the tach. https://www.spiyda.com/magento/index.ph ... ernal.html

Installation instructions: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ts15p0ae96uqk ... 3.pdf?dl=1
David Jones
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1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
2024 Lexus LBX

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#8 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by Spiyda » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:07 am

Hi, just to expand on what David has said, ( and he did invite me to post, this is not a random advertisement ! )

There are two different meter frames fitted inside the series 1 AC driven tachometers.
The early type have a different distance between the mounting holes we use for our internal kit, making it very difficult to fit.

The later ones have the holes in the right place but there is an added complication.
The back fibre plate with the terminals on on both these AC driven tachos makes it harder to fit the kit but not impossible.

I would advise for both types, using our external mounting kit which comes in a plastic box as below.
This was deigned to work using the points side of the coil to trigger, but in theory should also work with the AC generator. Until that is shown to be the case I would recommend driving it from the coil.
If it proved to work with the AC generator, then it can could be installed using the existing trigger wire, and if the generator were to fail at a later date, could easily be swapped to coil triggering.

For all RVI tachometers ( that have the current loop in the back ) then I would recommend our internal or external kits. The internal kit takes longer to fit but there is nothing extra to fit behind the dash.

Both the kits have the same electronics which can be triggered from a sports coil, a standard coil, or from an ECU. They work with standard points or the electronic trigger modules that fit inside the distributor.

If we can show that it triggers correctly from the tacho generator that would be great, but we are not there yet !

Chris

Spiyda Ltd.


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#9 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by ETTony » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:11 pm

Brilliant, thanks Chris
Tony in Devon
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#10 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by Series1 Stu » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:35 pm

Yes, very good. However, can the tachometer generator rotor be re-magnetised?

:scratchheadyellow:
Stuart

If you can't make it work, make it complicated!

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#11 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by cactusman » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:39 am

Yes. They could be. You would need to make sure the magnetic flux of the refreshed magnets was correct as the strength of the magnets determines the generator voltage...and there is the hard bit. Finding a company willing to do one set would probably be expensive...
Julian the E-type man
1962 FHC
1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#12 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by abowie » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:54 am

I've read a bit about remagnetising the magnets inside the Smith's mechanical tacho. From what I could see it is a pretty hit and miss affair.
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB. 1979 MGB.
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
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#13 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by JagWaugh » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:27 am

abowie wrote:I've read a bit about remagnetising the magnets inside the Smith's mechanical tacho. From what I could see it is a pretty hit and miss affair.
I've never done a tach generator, but I have fiddled with magnets on a couple of mechanisms like the speedo. Fiddly, hit and miss, and time consuming would be my description of this type of task. (like knitting smoke)

If you're intent on keeping the cam driven generator, and don't want to (or can't find) use a replacement generator, then I suspect it would be easier to fit the generator with a pickup (optical or Hall effect), or possibly a stepper, and convert the output with some external electronics.

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#14 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by ehos » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:48 am

Sent my tach generator to http://www.nisonger.com for rebuilding, worked great. Measured the AC frequency after installation, compared it to tach reading, it was pretty accurate, within 50 rpm. But they take a few weeks to send it back
Ehab Sahawneh
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#15 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by cactusman » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:22 am

As explained in detail in the original article David kindly found, the original configuration uses a generator to produce a voltage proportional to engine speed. The tachometer is just a big moving coil meter. The generator produces an alternating voltage and the tachometer rectifies this to direct current to feed the meter. The voltage generated varies from a few volts at idle to near 60 on the red line. As the magnets in the generator age the number of volts per thousand rpm drops and hence the tachometer reads low. However as it is a.c. the frequency is also directly related to engine speed and the number of cycles per second per thousand revs cannot change. The conversion circuit uses a chip to convert frequency to voltage to drive the tachometer....very neat. No need to dismantle the generator or mess with magnets....and so long as the tachometer is reasonably linear, pretty accurate. The chip is an LM2917 and all the bits cost less than £20... :bigrin:
Julian the E-type man
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1966 MGB....fab little car too

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#16 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by ETTony » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:56 pm

Job done.
One week from presenting the problem and it is fixed, with your help and advice.
I called Chris at Spiyda, super helpful guy and purchased an Analogue Tacho Driver board.
This matchbox sized PCB in its case sits behind the dash somewhere.
Connect to the -ve coil, switched supply, earth and the 2 tacho wires.

Remember to RTFI and open tacho, disconnect the stuff and reconnect the two wire to the case terminals. :doh:

Thats it. I have a working tacho.
Calibration tomorrow

Thanks again team.
Tony withaworkingtacho


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#17 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator

Post by PierreW » Tue Sep 17, 2024 8:41 am

cactusman wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:22 am
As explained in detail in the original article David kindly found, the original configuration uses a generator to produce a voltage proportional to engine speed. .... The voltage generated varies from a few volts at idle to near 60 on the red line. ..... The conversion circuit uses a chip to convert frequency to voltage to drive the tachometer....very neat. No need to dismantle the generator or mess with magnets....and so long as the tachometer is reasonably linear, pretty accurate. The chip is an LM2917 and all the bits cost less than £20... :bigrin:
According to you the generator produces a voltage of 60 volts for the red zone, my measurements showed me that the tachometer is in full deviation at around 28 volts. If we use a frequency/voltage converter we will only ever obtain around 14v maximum output voltage. How then to obtain the full deviation of the tachometer?
#19 Re: Rev counter behaving badly
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#18 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator. Job done

Post by Heuer » Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:05 am

Ray Livingston over on Jag-Lovers did a full description of how the S1 tach works:

"The S1 tach consists of a number of components: the tach-generator, the gauge itself, and inside the gauge a selenium bridge rectifier and a series inductor. The tach-generator outputs roughly 1V/100 RPM. Doing a little quick math, you'll see that's almost 60V at 6000 RPM. The gauge movement needs only a few volts to reach full-scale. The combination of the series inductor and the gauge resistance forms an AC voltage divider. Since the tach-generator is really a permanent magnet alternator, the frequency of it's output increases linearly with RPM. The impedance of the series inductor increases with increasing frequency, so the voltage drop across the inductor increases at higher RPM, limiting the voltage applied to the gauge movement to a safe level. The current load on the tach-gen is highest at max RPM. What tends to happen to these things is the magnets get weak from heat, vibration and age, which causes the voltage output to fall off and/or the ability to output enough current to provide the necessary max RPM output. The result is, quite consistently, when a S1 tach is off, it reads low. Sometimes *very* low. Mine was off by nearly 25%. Replacing the tach-gen may or may not really solve the problem, since the new ones seems to be essentially un-calibrated, so there is huge variation from unit to unit. My solution was to build a microprocessor board that uses the tach-gen only as a frequency source, not caring about the voltage or current levels, and drives the gauge as required to achieve about +-25 RPM accuracy at any RPM. Personally, I think your best bet is to consider having yours converted to a modern ignition-driven gauge, or slip in a S2 tach. I believe MoMa will do this, among others. Other than that, about all you can do is buy a new tach-gen, but be prepared to return/exchange it if you find it is off-calibration. Also, *never* trust the S1 mechanism at high RPM, unless you've recently verified its accuracy. I'm sure more than one E-type owner has blown an engine because of the lousy tachs."
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red
2024 Lexus LBX

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#19 Re: Remagnetising Tacho generator. Job done

Post by Tommd » Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:52 am

Heuer wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2024 10:05 am

" The tach-generator outputs roughly 1V/100 RPM. Doing a little quick math, you'll see that's almost 60V at 6000 RPM."
This statement is only partially correct. The tach generator generates 1 volt per 100 camshaft rpm’s, not crankshaft rpm’s. Therefore at 6000 rpm’s the tach generator is producing 30 vac, not 60vac.
And this is consistent with what Pierre’s test results were above.
Tom

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