Rubbish aftermarket parts

Red Kite · Post by **Red Kite** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:36 pm

Well, i've had my E Type one week now.
I have tinkered with internal door mechanisms to get them right and lubricated various linkages and thought i would get a locking fuel cap. My first spare part purchase and guess what .... it doesnt fit. It only rotates a little bit and the rubber seal will only compress less than 2mm. I Spoke to the supplier who checked their stock and it varies between 2mm and 9 mm movement. They were helpfull and will send me another after checking it on an actual car.
Not a good start though.

ChrisC · Post by **ChrisC** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:53 pm

Welcome to the joys of restoration :D

It can be jolly frustrating (as you have just found) but ultimately rewarding

ralphr1780 · Post by **ralphr1780** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:29 pm

Red Kite, that reminds me of my experience: I wanted to replace the standard non-locking cap having a screw vent, with a nice locking one. Same experience, it didn't fit. Had to trim down the mechanism and made it fit. But when I locked it would not unlock anymore. Simply twisted by hand it a bit too hard and it exploded in pieces... The joyful moment was to fish for the bit that had taken a dive in the tank.
So I did fit back the old original non-locking cap and never looked back.

Garry, I had a Haflinger several years back living in a remote mountain area, it was a real joy to use particularly in winter.
Replaced the original engine with a Cox 1900cc, easy conversion, would pull in 3rd from stop. And could beat all the Range Rovers in snow and rocky roads.

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:51 pm

Red Kite wrote:Well, i've had my E Type one week now.
I have tinkered with internal door mechanisms to get them right and lubricated various linkages and thought i would get a locking fuel cap. My first spare part purchase and guess what .... it doesnt fit. It only rotates a little bit and the rubber seal will only compress less than 2mm. I Spoke to the supplier who checked their stock and it varies between 2mm and 9 mm movement. They were helpfull and will send me another after checking it on an actual car.
Not a good start though.

Not sure I follow, and although we aren't talking about Jaguar parts, I'll comment, based on the two American Es in my garage with locking fuel caps.

Firstly, the rubber seal is only about 2-3 mm thick and it's solid rubber not foam construction, so obviously it's normal for it not to compress much. It merely deforms around the rounded top edge of the tank neck, to seal tiny irregularities between what should be two flat, smooth, parallel surfaces.

You may be comparing it to some kind of spring-loaded latch mechanism on your non-locking cap (i.e. a spring, not the seal, is compressing). Those usually rotate quite a long way around to engage the bayonet tabs like a lamp bulb. Many locking caps do not operate this way at all, so it would be perfectly normal for them to do what you describe.

I would guess your locking cap is like the old style locking caps fitted to both my FHCs. These do not work like a normal cap and just turn a small amount, which is when you turn the key and remove it to engage a locking tab that prevents the cap being unscrewed.

If the seller tells you they have tested the second cap and you still think it's not right, it could be your expectations that need adjusting, not the cap.
Usually, the key can only be removed once the cap is locked and it cannot be repoved while the cap is unlocked and off the car. That helps forgetful old men like to not to drive off without either the cap or their car keys.

Pete

adam · Post by **adam** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:42 pm

Why make parts that are substandard, not fit for intended use. We want parts that are close to originals as possible not the rubbish thats often passed off for jaguar e type spares. The classic motorcycle scene is no better.If i ever win the lottery there is a company that i will offer an obscene amount of money to build me a bike using there spares only as long as i can watch them toil and struggle with their "almost" parts!!
Adam

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:22 pm

They aren't Jaguar parts, obviously. E-types never had a locking fuel cap so the issue of 'substandard' doesn't really arise in the normal way of craptastic copy parts for what Jaguar DID make. There are enough of those around but this isn't an example of that problem, since there was never a Jag part to screw up in the first place.

ChrisC · Post by **ChrisC** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:06 pm

Are you sure about that Peter?

I bow to your superior knowledge but i believe that Jaguar did produce a locking petrol cap around the the time of the introduction of the 4.2

Simon P · Post by **Simon P** » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:53 pm

ChrisC wrote:Are you sure about that Peter?

I bow to your superior knowledge but i believe that Jaguar did produce a locking petrol cap around the the time of the introduction of the 4.2

Porter lists it as a factory option for all models

AussieEtype · Post by **AussieEtype** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:19 am

A friend of mine is doing some major work on his Series 1 4.2 and has bought lots and lots of parts from the major parts supplier in the UK. Amongst them were genuine SU floats and ignition coil. He was having a sook to me that the coil did not work and that the floats had all developed holes and were now full of petrol.

I told him that it seemed to be the norm these days but he rightly said no it shouldn't be and is going to take a stand and send them back demanding his money back (with shipping) or replacement - and if the replacements do not work as advertised he has warned the supplier they will be going back as well.

It is had to enforce consumer protection in the UK from Aust but our consumer laws have been toughened up to assist.

If everyone took a stand and demanded satisfaction then suppliers would be forced to do the same with the makers of the parts.

Garry

Red Kite · Post by **Red Kite** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:29 am

I realise the rubber wont compress, its the spring mechanism thats at fault. It only allows the cap to turn around 30 degrees before it seizes and wont allow the key to be removed. If the mechanism compressed more it would allow the cap to rotate on the filler neck cam by the 90 degrees that is required to remove the key.
My expectation was to get a filler cap that fitted the car ...............

Red Kite · Post by **Red Kite** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:10 am

PeterCrespin wrote:They aren't Jaguar parts, obviously. E-types never had a locking fuel cap so the issue of 'substandard' doesn't really arise in the normal way of craptastic copy parts for what Jaguar DID make. There are enough of those around but this isn't an example of that problem, since there was never a Jag part to screw up in the first place.

From the Jaguar Heritage Parts Catalogue ...

[/img]

Strangely enough, thats the exact part number of the cap i ordered from the supplier....

PeterCrespin · Post by **PeterCrespin** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:16 am

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I did read that typed list once upon a time but had forgotten Jaguar had the accesory option and my two current S2 FHCs are the first ones I've seen and they are not alike either.

Both only turn about 30 degrees at the cap and the key doesn't turn much either from open to locked and removable. Waste of time I think but if you buy something it should work. If you're gagging for a locking cap that works you can swap your standard cap for one of mine.

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:12 am

garrycol wrote: I told him that it seemed to be the norm these days but he rightly said no it shouldn't be and is going to take a stand and send them back demanding his money back (with shipping) or replacement - and if the replacements do not work as advertised he has warned the supplier they will be going back as well.

If everyone took a stand and demanded satisfaction then suppliers would be forced to do the same with the makers of the parts.

Garry

Although I have a lot of sympathy , having suffered from variants of the problem , there are two problems with this view of things :

a. There is no compulsion on a supplier to supply - if your friend makes threats of this nature they will just give him his money back and tell him that all further deals with him are off

b.suppliers would not be forced to take the same approach with manufacturers ( often in the Far East ) - what will happen is that the supply of pattern parts will dwindle to nothing, and then where will we be ?

AussieEtype · Post by **AussieEtype** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:57 am

christopher storey wrote:
Although I have a lot of sympathy , having suffered from variants of the problem , there are two problems with this view of things :

a. There is no compulsion on a supplier to supply - if your friend makes threats of this nature they will just give him his money back and tell him that all further deals with him are off

b.suppliers would not be forced to take the same approach with manufacturers ( often in the Far East ) - what will happen is that the supply of pattern parts will dwindle to nothing, and then where will we be ?

So we just continue to receive useless parts and part with hard earned money for nothing.

Here we call that bending over and taking the pineapple

- no thanks.

adam · Post by **adam** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:00 am

With lazer scanning and resin prototyping its possible to make one 100 per cent accurate copies of most parts.If the companies said they needed so many firm orders to produce more expensive but accurate parts.i would be interested as i think would many others.

Adam

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:00 am

Excellent, Gary . I hope you are good at making parts for yourself .

Woolfi · Post by **Woolfi** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:36 am

"With lazer scanning and resin prototyping its possible to make one 100 per cent accurate copies of most parts.If the companies said they needed so many firm orders to produce more expensive but accurate parts.i would be interested as i think would many others."
I say it the hard way: To much dreaming of naive people and to much talking of 'mouth-heroes'.
I am dealing with soft-tops. I am offering a very, very good fitting soft-top for a E-type Seies III and also Series I/II, produced in high quality "Sonnenland" Classic". A friend of me has a garage for E-types and is selling cars after restoration in super condition for more than 100000 pound. For this cars he needs the best tops. Because I am owner of an EV12 roadster, I was willing to make some extra effort, to develope perfect fitting tops for theses impressive and extensive "beauties".
But in internet or selling to part suppliers / dealers only one counts: a low or the lowest price. Why ? Because most customers prefere low prices for the parts. That's the hard reality. Shure there are also customers, which would pay some more money for "good" parts. But is a lot of effort and would take time, to establish a "high qualitity image" for such a company on the market.
If somebody dos not believe this, he shall invest his hard earned money in a part production or try to establish a shop for "good" parts. The market will teach him ! It would be an expensive way to learn, how this business is working.
This is my own private opinion on this problem. Shure there is also a marekt for "good" parts , which would be more expensive. But if you produce cheap and you produce also big amounts of a part, the cost of each would be MUCH lower than for the same typ of part, which would be produced with 30% more effort and in LOWER quantities. This simple oeconomic mechanismen makes the single "good" part expensive.
Kind regards Wolfgang Gatza*

*Shure also hungry for "good" parts.

Dave K · Post by **Dave K** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:43 am

adam wrote:With lazer scanning and resin prototyping its possible to make one 100 per cent accurate copies of most parts.If the companies said they needed so many firm orders to produce more expensive but accurate parts.i would be interested as i think would many others.

Adam

When I worked at a car factory in Coventry they had one of the laser scanning machines which could then produce a composite material pattern of the part you required.
I had a good mate who worked in the prototype shop there and we struck a deal, I would repair his air tools for him and he would make parts for the E-Type.
He made all the interior trim parts for my car including the dash panels for the clocks since my car was originally a LHD.
My mate is a time served sheet metal worker and probably one of the best in and around Coventry. Dunno his hourly rate or how much one the laser machines cost but I guess to make my parts would have cost a small fortune.
How many companies can afford to buy run and maintain then train up someone to operate the machine.
We have to be real out of the 72000 E-Types that were manufactured how many are left? There are almost 15000 on xked and probably as many hidden away or unaccounted for. Even if you said there were 2/3 left they are all different models so parts are not all standard so supply companies would have to pay very high prices for small batch work that just wouldn't be cost effective.

The reason there are so many E-Types about is parts can be made relatively cheaply and will fit with a bit of fettling. Not ideal but better than nothing. When you get to the larger body panels then costs for new stamps and dies go wild and even the major motor manufacturers join forces to produce floor pans that can be used over a wider range of vehicles. The Metro floor pan is the same floor pan used for the MGF with extra bits welded on the front and back, the same with the Aston Martin DB range they have the XJS floor pan with 10" cut off the boot area.
I'm in the camp of I'll take what I can get and it will fit once I'm finished with it.

Dave

christopher storey · Post by **christopher storey** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:49 pm

Dave K : I have to agree with you. Although there have been a few notorious examples of material problems ( rotor arms perhaps being the best known ) my experience of problems has by and large been one of inaccurate fit, so that e.g. bolt holes have to be elongated . This was so prevalent - and seemingly always to approximately the same degree of inaccuracy - that I developed a theory to account for it : the Far Eastern suppliers worked on the metric system , and converted to imperial measurements byusing 25 rather than 25.4mm to the inch - thus a part requiring 3 inches between centres would have each hole 0.6 mm closer towards the centre than should have been the case

5speeds · Post by **5speeds** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:09 pm

About poor fitting parts....

I can only give you an opinion based on what I have seen by the majority of companies selling parts... and for me transmission parts. Most of your parts suppliers are just that.... parts suppliers. They are not engineering firms. So for example an item such as a washer bottle simply goes out to a company ( usually in the far east ) and they say "make a copy of this for me". As a result of this, the copy has tolerances that get lost in translation as well as what materials should be used. If you don't draw up your own "blueprints". specify tolerances and have the ability to check samples with IN HOUSE CMM machines ( coordinate measuring machines) your product will always have flaws. As a supplier WITHOUT prints specified, you cannot reject a run of 1000 pieces because you never set a spec to begin with! In 32 years of business I was able to acquire a vast amount of OEM engineering drawings. These drawings have become a huge asset of intellectual property for us and a basis to make improvements on. Today we do have more accurate and better techniques to cast, machine and produce purer alloys. You would think something as simple looking as a washer bottle would be easy to duplicate. However, without an original print, knowledge of materials used and manufacturing specs.... the door for error is wide open.

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