Crankshaft rear oil seal

[JagWaugh]

I should have been more clear...it wasn't just you.

Frankly, your post quite clearly mentions Chris by name, and goes on to insult anyone participating in this thread in particular, and anyone else who expresses reserve about uprated seals.

Bill's seals do seem to be above the cut. You could have left it at that without getting insulting.

[64etype]

No need to call Bill Terry's kit a "bodge"....no need to state that the upgrades are merely attempts by suppliers to make a buck where there is no need. No need to cast aspersions on the technical merits of these retrofits using incorrect assumptions. As an engineer, I deal with facts, not opinion. Who here besides me has ordered the two most widely used kits and actually evaluated them side by side? Who here has even seen one of the kits? If anyone is owed an apology, it's Bill Terry.

[Gfhug]

Eric, did anyone actually call Bill Terry's kit a bodge?
Sadly there are some bodge kits about and they have been responsible for a bad reputation that has sadly been assumed to apply to BT's as well.

No one doubts your experiences with his kit. The comments were about the experiences people have seen with some of the modification, not necessarily BTs, he's not the only maker

Geoff

[64etype]

Christopher Storey, post #19.

I am well aware of issues with other kits. That is why I ordered and compared the two that are readily available in the US to see for myself. If you look in the archives, I have gone into specifics. Might be that Bill Terry was well aware of the issues when he engineered his own retrofit....

[Heuer]

Have to say Terry's kit looks well thought out and developed so I can see why Eric both uses and endorses it.

[JagWaugh]

No need to call Bill Terry's kit a "bodge"....no need to state that the upgrades are merely attempts by suppliers to make a buck where there is no need. No need to cast aspersions on the technical merits of these retrofits using incorrect assumptions. As an engineer, I deal with facts, not opinion. Who here besides me has ordered the two most widely used kits and actually evaluated them side by side? Who here has even seen one of the kits? If anyone is owed an apology, it's Bill Terry.

You don't seem to be following very well. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point out exactly where Chris mentions Bill Terry's kit as being sub standardexplicitly in this thread. If he had, then you would be dealing with fact, if it is your opinion that Chris meant Bill Terry's kit is sub standard then you're still just offering mere conjecture, which is a claim you make of anyone else offering an opinion, but you evidently feel you are not prone to.

I've only built 5 XKs, two with lip seals. One of the lip seals was fabricated from scratch by one of the foremost motorshops here in the German part of Switzerland, the other was from SNG. The former worked perfectly (The guy just simply doesn't do anything by part measures), the latter I don't know as the owner passed on and the car was sold before I got the engine in. The other 3 I fitted a rope seal, using the correct tool, and procedures.

Go on Eric, repeat once again that you're an engineer, and that Bill Terry as been wronged. I'm not an engineer, but rather a mere philosopher with an electrician's ticket. Repeating yourself, crying "shameful" and otherwise engaging in ad hominem doesn't improve your argument in the least.

I'd long ago have said "Sorry Chris, I kind of lost it there. Bill's seal kit is, in my experience, a really good modification".

[Hugo]

I wonder how much of this is simply the good old cultural differences between the US and the UK? In my experience we in the UK seem to be far more reserved in how we express ourselves. We are terrified of giving offence, whereas US culture is far more outspoken.
Also, internet communication seems to have an unfortunate tendency of making words appear more aggressive than they might do if accompanied by the appropriate body language.
My take is that clearly Christopher didn't malign Mr Terry, and I'm not convinced Eric intended to malign Christopher, although he (Eric) could have considered his words more carefully before committing them to pixels.

[Hugo]

Have to say Terry's kit looks well thought out and developed so I can see why Eric both uses and endorses it.

Aren't the mods all pretty much designed on the same principle of a split lip seal - with the exception of Rob Beere's which uses an complete seal.
How is Mr Terry's "well thought out" compared to others?

[Heuer]

He had the forethought to make a video and talk through the entire process showing us why and how he did things. As far as I know no one else has done the same. Besides I warm to anyone who works in a spotless workshop! The cost is a reasonable £300 although shipping/duty/VAT + grinding the crank will add to that. I can't find the thread Eric is referring to where he bought and compared two seal kits but it would be interesting to read his thoughts.

Hugo - you should have enough information to make an informed decision by now. Let us know what you finally opted for.

[Hugo]

I wonder how much of this is simply the good old cultural differences between the US and the UK? .

Plus the fact that Americans are infuriatingly sloppy in their use of the English language! If I try to write correct English while I'm in the States, I feel like a right pedant!

[Hugo]

Hugo - you should have enough information to make an informed decision by now. Let us know what you finally opted for.

Up till last night I did have - I had settled on keeping the rope seal. But now this has all blown up again I'm not so sure - Mr Terry's is back in the game

[64etype]

No need to call Bill Terry's kit a "bodge"....no need to state that the upgrades are merely attempts by suppliers to make a buck where there is no need. No need to cast aspersions on the technical merits of these retrofits using incorrect assumptions. As an engineer, I deal with facts, not opinion. Who here besides me has ordered the two most widely used kits and actually evaluated them side by side? Who here has even seen one of the kits? If anyone is owed an apology, it's Bill Terry.

You don't seem to be following very well. Perhaps you would be so kind as to point out exactly where Chris mentions Bill Terry's kit as being sub standardexplicitly in this thread. If he had, then you would be dealing with fact, if it is your opinion that Chris meant Bill Terry's kit is sub standard then you're still just offering mere conjecture, which is a claim you make of anyone else offering an opinion, but you evidently feel you are not prone to.

I've only built 5 XKs, two with lip seals. One of the lip seals was fabricated from scratch by one of the foremost motorshops here in the German part of Switzerland, the other was from SNG. The former worked perfectly (The guy just simply doesn't do anything by part measures), the latter I don't know as the owner passed on and the car was sold before I got the engine in. The other 3 I fitted a rope seal, using the correct tool, and procedures.

Go on Eric, repeat once again that you're an engineer, and that Bill Terry as been wronged. I'm not an engineer, but rather a mere philosopher with an electrician's ticket. Repeating yourself, crying "shameful" and otherwise engaging in ad hominem doesn't improve your argument in the least.

I'd long ago have said "Sorry Chris, I kind of lost it there. Bill's seal kit is, in my experience, a really good modification".

See post #19 my friend. I'm an engineer...actually an engineering test pilot. Bill Terry has been wronged.

[Series1 Stu]

The problem here is that there isn't enough data to make an informed decision.

We know that the rope seal is prone to leak. Fact! We know this because there are hundreds of thousands of them out there. We also know that they can be put right.

Unfortunately, there are not enough of the alternative types out there to make a properly informed decision based on statistical data. It is unlikely that there ever will be due to the specialist nature of the market.

Yes, you can use judgement based on sound engineering experience but you are still only assessing a single item and there is nothing to say that subsequently produced items will not be better or worse than the sample.

I don't imagine that any of the aftermarket products are designed with anything less than good intentions but proving the validity of the design is a long, drawn out, expensive process.

There is no point in bickering about it because nobody knows with absolute certainty.

Personally, I wouldn't modify my crankshaft if there's any degree of risk of the new seal failing.

Regards

[64etype]

Bill Terry uses his own design in his race engines...probably the best testing regime available under the circumstances. Further, it's not like a crank seal is rocket science. Use a proven seal from a volume manufacturer and position it correctly on the crank surface. If you're concerned about the location of seal carriers...measure them before machining the crank.

[Series1 Stu]

Eric

Look beyond the red mist and actually read what I wrote.

Nowhere did I suggest that there are any weaknesses in any of the available designs. I just pointed out the facts with respect to available data.

As an engineer, you must be familiar with product qualification methods in order to prove a design.

Regards

[Heuer]

it's not like a crank seal is rocket science

You don't 'science' a rocket, you engineer one! You should be saying ""it's not like a crank seal is rocket engineering".

Of course it was a failed seal that unfortunately caused the Challenger disaster so the rocket analogy is there.

[Series1 Stu]

Well, yes David but, at the same time, no.

In engineering a product you "apply" science. Therefore, qualified engineers earn the moniker Bachelor of Science. Or at least they used to in the days when engineering courses were worth something.

Regards

[64etype]

Eric

Look beyond the red mist and actually read what I wrote.

Nowhere did I suggest that there are any weaknesses in any of the available designs. I just pointed out the facts with respect to available data.

As an engineer, you must be familiar with product qualification methods in order to prove a design.

Regards

Stu, I took your remarks to be in regard to variations in production tolerances for the seal carriers and offered a back up method to check them before installation. I'd bet Bill Terry has a quality control regime regarding machining tolerances on the carriers, but you'd have to ask him. If you're speaking of strength of materials testing, loads analysis, and durability for the machined billet carriers, you obviously won't get that from any of these small suppliers. Neither do you get it for a myriad of aftermarket internal engine parts. Timing chain guides and tensioners come to mind. So do the current spec rope seals.

The seal carriers are low (virtually no) stress items and oversized for the task just by looking at them. The service history of the seal itself is backed by years of service in GM cars. I don't get the concern, but can't disagree that there's not a data base out there for the carriers.

Regards

[rubyfloriley]

we restored my XK 12 years ago but have done very few miles in the car, this year after taking it out of winter storage it has developed a bad oil leak i am waiting to get it on a ramp to confirm its the main crank rope oil seal. A daunting task to take the engine out of a finished car, So this has made my mind up to do the conversion via SNG supply on my etype.

[Hugo]

Why the SNG version? Have you ruled out the others? I wonder if the rope seal might be a victim of its own success - is it possible that rust has formed on that part of the crank and damaged the seal?
I think if it were my car I wouldn't be in a rush to rip the engine out - you might just be lucky & it has just dried out, and when it gets a good soaking it might seal better. That's assuming it is the rope seal in the first place of course, and you obviously want to make VERY sure it's not something else before pulling the engine out.
All this is probably wishful thinking on my part - and I have learned over the years to be a pessimist in these matters - but worth a try.