Tried to fire her up tonight...but no....

[christopher storey]

I should have added that I do not believe that mistiming would lead to no reaction at all. Gross mistiming usually leads to coughs, bangs, backfires etc

[chrisfell]

I think we should start a book on the eventual cause of Carsten's woes.
My money is on the HT leads beng incorrectly fitted to the dizzie, so.....
Carsten, from your photos, and previous descriptions it seems that your engine is at TDC on the compression stroke for cylinder 6, and the dizzie is about to open the points. If this is at 9 degrees before TDC the static timing is OK. The rotor is now rotating anti clockwise towards the next post on the dizzie cap. This must be the post into which the lead for cylinder 6 is located. If so, cylinder 6 will fire. All that remains is to ensure the rest of the plug leads are in the order 624153 anti-clockwise around the dizzie, then all cylinders will fire.

Let us know, please.

[ralphr1780]

How about simply looking in the wsm? Engine chapter/timing. There is an illustration showing where the rotor arm should be.
My money is on the 180 deg.

[Durango2k]

Back from the shed. Something solved, still no firing at all.

First, I did what Andrew from Switzerland said. Mark the rotor on the dissi body when it is facing a terminal and see if you can get an ignition there. I could !

So, I found that I am not 180 degs out. Its even worse, I am 180- 60 = 120 out (I believe). How do I get to this figure ? Easy: Set engine to frontmost (6) tdc (10 degs advance of course). Then rotor shows to about 11 o'clock. Then I discovered that it lines up with a terminal there (did that part on the bench clamped in a vice but that does not matter).

Put it back in car, rotor shows 11 degs, and adjusted it with a lamp to just ignite. This means I now have this special terminal top left as "my number 6", if you get what I mean. No 6 is on tdc, it fires, and the rotor faces the terminal.

Then, I took the firing sequence 6 2 4 1 5 3 and put the no 6 cable to where the rotor now was - and started to put in the rest of the cables in firing sequence round the cap.

Then, checked for no. 5, because this can be seen throught the oil filler cap looking backwards. Indeed, when rotor faces the 4 o'clock (pm) terminal, which is usually no 6, my lead goes to no 5, which is correct in this case.

Then, tried to fire her up- no, not even a cough. After that, I took an old spark plug, put an old wire into the coil centre, plug in other end of HT lead, laid plug on carb manifold, and made a moovie showing that when I just wiggle the rotor a tiny bit it gives a spark.

Now, the spark seems to be quiete weak- its still the 1966 points and capacitor. I renewed the plastic water protection intermediate wire, because it was very fragile and had lost a lot of its sheath, but that did not help.

Finally tried to spray some carb cleaner into the inlets, then gave up.

Duely went home to write this text.

Here are the pics:







My lefthand index finger shows the HT lead the rotor now faces exactly, see above, just cap fitted now:




Here I follow the HT lead to show where it goes: No 6.





Carsten

[Durango2k]

And here's the video:

https://sendvid.com/4gjnko68

Carsten

[64etype]

Excellent. Now reattach the coil wire to the distributer cap, reinstall the cap on the distributer, attach that loose spark plug to any of the spark plug wires coming from the distributer, ground that loose plug, and crank the engine to see if you're getting spark through the distributor cap. If so, you probably have a fuel problem. If not it's likely the cap, rotor, HT wires, etc. Check a couple (or even all) of the plug leads.
I had a miss when my engine fired up for the first time....one of the leads wasn't firmly screwed into the cap.

[abowie]

Carsten

Ok. To my eye the groove is pointing 11 to 5 and the big D is up.

What you have probably done, I think, is fail to move the drive back the correct number of teeth when you installed the drive cog on the crank. See http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/t ... 6-eb2.html for the description of the right way to do this. So you're probably some number of teeth out, but I think you have the drive dog the right way up in the engine.

This doesn't account for the fact that even allowing for this your distributor still seems to be pointing 180 degrees out. Have you disassembled it? If so did you make sure that you put the drive dog on the bottom back in the correct orientation? It's possible of course that someone else has done this in the past as well.

To be honest it's pretty hard to make a diagnosis from the other side of the world based on a couple of pictures. Nevertheless you know where the rotor arm needs to be pointing at TDC in order to get the engine to run. You will be able to do this by a combination of reorienting the drive dog in the bottom of the distributor, rotating the distributor body and moving the leads around to different positions on the cap.

Once you have the timing correct, if the engine still doesn't run, then you can start to look elsewhere.

[64etype]

Maybe I misunderstood what Carston was saying in his last post, but it's my understanding that he got the points adjusted to open correctly with the #6 wire aligned over the rotor....albeit with the #6 contact on the distributer in a "non-standard" location. Then he did re-clock the wires accordingly. So it should start if all else is in order. Given that it appears the drive gear is off a tooth or two in the clockwise direction, I wonder if resetting the drive dog 180 degrees on the shaft might force the vacuum module too far clockwise (interference with the block).

[Durango2k]

Hi,

I came along the thought that maybe it was me to 180 deg phase out the upper half of the dissi internals.

Usually- I do not remember how it looks inside- there is a lower half with bobweights, and 2 different springs. This part is firm / fixed position vs. the engine drive dog. The upper part just sits loose on the main shaft, and can be turned around by 15 something degrees to allow for advance. I think I can turn the upper half by 180 degs and then the rotor arm would finally be were the book says it should be at TDC.

The vac capsule is now a bit "facing away" from the engine, but not many degs out of the straight line the block orientates along.

Getting back to the relatively weak spark: points are new iirc, capacitor as well: I do have a red high power coil and will try that as well, it would be fine for a few moments wired loosely in.

Should I try a start without the capacitor ?

Carsten

[abowie]

The dog comes off the bottom with a roll pin. This allows disassembly.

[Durango2k]

...the dog does not come of in my car. Rock solid. You know me- I tried with a large hammer ! ^^

Anyway, I remember I had the bob weights out- so there must be a way to take the top half of...

Carsten

[chrisfell]

Hmmmmm!

According to the picture of the drive for the dizzie, it is pretty much according to the manual, if the crank is at cylinder 6 TDC compression stroke. Maybe just a little out. Again according to the manual, the wire that Carsten's finger traces to the plug should be cylinder 1. The wire for cylinder 6 should be precisely opposite!

Curious!

I'm pretty sure mine is nothing like either Carsten's or the manual. But it runs, sort of OK.

[abowie]

...the dog does not come of in my car. Rock solid. You know me- I tried with a large hammer ! ^^

Anyway, I remember I had the bob weights out- so there must be a way to take the top half of...

Carsten

The only way to get the shaft out for disassembly is to drift the roll pin out and remove the dog.

Have you got access to another distributor?

[Durango2k]

Hi Andrew,

I have done that (remove dog pin etc.) on SEV Marchal dissis (DS, SM), to adjust vertical play using shims.

No,,sadly no other unit available.

Again, if I take all the small parts out and unscrew the main centre screw on top of the shaft (visible when rotor is removed), can't I then lift the upper half out, and rotate it by 180 degs ? I had it out because I did remove the weights below it.

But maybe my memory is plain wrong...

Carsten

[christopher storey]

Your memory is quite correct : undo the screw, disconnect the bobweight springs , and the top half of the shaft should come out of the bob weights and be capable of being turned through 180 degrees and replaced. However, it is far far easier just to move each plug lead round 3 terminals if it is necessary to retime which if you read my earlier post of 2 or 3 days ago, you will see I think is not necessary

[paulsco]

Maybe it’s me, but I am completely confused by what is going on here.
Carsten, from what I understand you have turned the engine to TDC on the firing stroke for the front cylinder (6) then moved it back to 10 BTDC (hopefully back further than 10 degrees and then back again to 10 degrees to take up the slack in the chains etc).
At this point the rotor arm was between two of the posts on the distributor cap and not adjacent to one?? Looking at your picture of the distributor drive shaft (presumably at TDC) it is too far right by about 20 to 30 degrees. This to me implies that the drive shaft has been incorrectly positioned and this is why the rotor arm is between distributor cap posts when the points are opening. I can’t see how moving the cam 180 degrees is going to make any difference, but I may be missing something.

Paul

[Durango2k]

Hi,

I found that - strange indeed- the rotor's heel could be made to fire a spark and at the same time face one of the terminals. Just not at 10 but at 11 o'clock. So I did that.

Next is to remove the centre screw, turn it 180 round, see that it faces the lower right terminal and gives a spark- if that works, I'll leave it there. It's nearer towards what the book says :-)

I just remembered that I do have a second dissi- in fact one complete setup from an XJ6 S3 big valve including the brown module.

I'll dig these parts out later (different shed), and see what this looks like. Maybe I can change over to electronic ignition, and get a better spark then what I have now.

Carsten

[christopher storey]

I am going to post my earlier post verbatim . I do not think there is anything wrong with your timing


"Look, this discussion seems to be getting out of hand. As far as I can see from your pictures, the leading edge of the rotor arm, that is, the "hooked" protrusion, is exactly where it should be. That is, it is directly adjacent to the terminal which lies just further on in the direction of rotation from the cap securing clip . What is not shown in your photographs is the spark plug to which that terminal leads. If it is to the front plug then your timing is fine. If it is to some other plug then you need to reposition the plug leads

Let us therefore go back to first principles . With the distributor centre HT lead disconnected from the distributor and held close to earth , with the ignition switched on and the points closed , do you get a spark if the points are flicked open ? If so , points and coil are working .

Next, if with the same setup the motor is spun over on the starter, do you get sparks ? If so, sparks should be reaching the rotor arm

Next, with the centre HT lead reconnected, and the cap on and secured, and with one or more plug leads held close to earth, do sparks appear when the starter is spun over. If so, your ignition system is o.k.

If no sparks to plug are apparent, then either

1. the centre HT lead is not making proper contact , or


2.the carbon brush/spring inside the cap is defective or not making contact ( and quite recently I found this was happening because the carbon brush had become soaked in oil ) or


3. The rotor arm is conducting to earth - a now very common fault


Good luck"

[Durango2k]

Tonight I found that after rotating the upper part of the dissi the rotor faces a terminal and is about at 16 o'clock.

Then I had a look in my spares edge and found a complete RB14 ignition kit.

Believing that I have a weak spark I thought I might try fitting this instead- it is fairly easy anyway, say 20 minutes. And I can compare them.

Anything to consider ? The black massive plug goes into the dissi. Then there are 2 wires for a coil- one on each coil spade connector ?

Which coil does it use - I have the standard E coil or an 1.35 Ohms high power red coil, which has a resistor (if you use it).

Carsten

[andrewh]

16.00 o clock? This could be your problem!