Front frames Series II

[Hugo]

Any advice, please, on where to purchase new engine frames? My Series II is with the local welder and panel-beater for him to get the bonnet to shut properly, but the job is going backwards at high speed! I thought that now is the time to paint the engine frames, while the bonnet is off (engine & gearbox already out), also I want to treat and paint the seams where the wings / fenders join the centre bonnet, before it goes back on. I have stripped all the ancilliaries off the frames ready for painting, at which point my panel-beater friend has just helpfully pointed out that the whole frame is cock-eyed. The left side of the picture frame is lower than the right, and as far as I can tell, the right-hand side frame points uphill relative to the left. Not by much, and you'd never notice if it was all back together. There are some strange dings on the inside of the left hand rail whch look to me like the manifold has gone into it at some stage. The left front wing / fender has been replaced, which is why the bonnet didn't fit very well.
My friend's brother, who does the heavy welding at their blacksmith's shop, suggested putting a piece of wood on the right front corner and walloping it with a 14 lb sledge hammer. He reckons that would knock it back into shape. I don't, but we're not going to put it to the test!
I am very new to E Types so don't know all the suppliers. I have heard of Uryk, and he seems to have a good reputation. There are other suppliers of frames at a much lower price. The question, without asking anybody to commit libel, is whom to avoid and why? Libellous comments off-list to Hugo@aruncoaches.co.uk !

[mark10337]

I think the general consensus and experience is that Uryk made frames are the best in the business and will be fully true with the originals.

[neil4444]

Hi Hugo,

No need for duplicate posts as all new messages get picked up by forum members.
It's recommended to put your name & car details in your signature (via your profile settings) so wherever you post we know what car derivative you're referring to.

ATB,

[abowie]

I think the general consensus and experience is that Uryk made frames are the best in the business and will be fully true with the originals.

I disagree that this is the "general consensus".

Uryk certainly has satisfied customers, however as I have said, I have fitted a number of sets of the Robey frames and they have all fitted perfectly without issue. I have also used a set of frames from Uryk. Again they fitted perfectly, albeit at a substantially higher cost.

[neil4444]

I saw a pair of Robey frames yesterday that simply would not fit. The garage had spent half a day trying to get them on & aligned. They gave up & switched to ETF (Uryk's) frames which bolted up / aligned within 15 minutes. I could see that the fixing bracket on one frame was misaligned. It may be just a quality issue with some being okay & some not. But if you get a bad set it can end up costing just as much as the ETF frames once all the labour is considered.

[Hugo]

Hi Hugo,

No need for duplicate posts as all new messages get picked up by forum members.
It's recommended to put your name & car details in your signature (via your profile settings) so wherever you post we know what car derivative you're referring to.

ATB,

Thank you for your advice - I must be doing something wrong, because I don't receive new posts, or any posts at all unless I log in to the Forum. I'll see if I can figure out this signature business - I'm not very good with computer stuff like this though! Hugo Miller, Series II OTS in bits.

[Hugo]

I also posted this question on the Series II forum, and a couple of people suggested it might be the tub that is bent. Any ideas how to check this? Apologies for starting two parallel threads on the same subject - I didn't know that's how it worked, not being very good with computers & cyber-stuff.
Hugo Miller Series II OTS (in bits)

[neil4444]

Hi Hugo,
Once you're logged in click on your username (top right-ish of screen). You will have options of 'User Control Panel' and 'Profile'. To change your notification settings select User Control Panel, Board Preferences tab then select Edit Notifications. You can choose your preference re how you receive notifications via forum & email. To add your details (name, car) to your signature select the Profile option. Then select edit profile and you can then add details.

Hope that makes sense ?!

Regards,

[Hugo]

[quote="neil4444"]Hi Hugo,
Once you're logged in click on your username (top right-ish of screen). You will have options of 'User Control Panel' and 'Profile'. To change your notification settings select User Control Panel, Board Preferences tab then select Edit Notifications. You can choose your preference re how you receive notifications via forum & email. To add your details (name, car) to your signature select the Profile option. Then select edit profile and you can then add details.
Hope that makes sense ?!

Not only does it make sense, I think I've cracked it! Thanks for your help!

[christopher storey]

I posted this on the other thread but you seem not to have seen it

There is a diagram in the workshop manual ( included in the documentation in the knowledge base on this site ) which gives all the measurements you need to check. It is not a 5 minute job. It is at pages N26-28 of this link
14 Body & Exhaust: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rr6lfhntg7w1t ... t.pdf?dl=1

I suggest also that you speak with Andy Rayner at Hutsons , who build/rebuild the shells, and also sell Uryk's frames, who will give you good advice as to what to do in this situation , 01274 669052

[Hugo]

I did see it - my apologies for not responding - my fault for starting two parallel threads. I think I'm getting the hang of it all now! Called Hutsons earlier but they weren't answering - I'll try later.

[christopher storey]

Hugo : our posts have crossed in editing my post - I have now put a link on for the diagram pages

[Hugo]

The plot thickens; my frames are 1/8" (3mm) lower on the left than the right by the time they get to the front of the car. Curiously, the picture frame is 1/4" lower on the left. And by the time you get to the bonnet pivots, the left is a full 3/4" lower than the right. Try as I might, I cannot see where the discrepancy is. The only thing I can see is a slight variation in how the front flange is brazed to the top tubes; on the right, the top of the flange sits about 1/8" higher than the top of the tube, whereas on the left they are almost level. There are two or three little dings on the inboard of the left side top tube, which looks to me as though the exhaust manifold has gone into it. The car has a replacement left front wing / fender, which suggests somebody has gone into the side of it at some point. This may account for the 1/8" discrepancy in the side frames, and the difference in the flanges accounts for the extra slope on the picture frame bringing it to 1/4", but we are half an inch adrift on the front frame (bonnet mounting frame) alone, and I just can't see where it is! Weird.
This all started when I asked my friend the panel beater to adjust the bonnet shuts, as the bonnet was sitting about 3/8" (10mm) high on the left at the back edge. We both agree that this is probably caused by it's being 3/4" (19mm) low at the left front hinge, and it won't be that big a deal to 'adjust' the front frame. I am given to understand that the picture frame is made of mild steel, while the front frame, like the main side frames, is made of Reynolds 531. I am not clear why this should be so, given that the front frame does nothing other than hold the bonnet and the radiator on - I would have thought they would have used mild steel. Am I missing something? Or have I just been mis-informed?

[christopher storey]

No, you are not misinformed. I think that the difference in materials is that the picture frame would have been impossible to make if the various pressings which make it up were not capable of being spot welded, and the Renold tube cannot be welded , perhaps because of hydrogen embrittlement, but must only be brazed

As to the differences in dimensions, it seems probable that there has been a smack to it at some stage. Whether it is worth worrying about is perhaps a moot point, as there is anecdotal evidence that cars often varied in dimensions from side to side ( particularly wheelbase) by as much as 1/2 inch !

I can tell you that Hutsons when they fit a brand new bonnet often have to cut off the rolled edge at the bottom of the wing , splice in some metal to provide the correct vertical dimension, and then weld it back together. They did this on both sides with mine - which was a new heritage bonnet - and you would never know from looking at it either inside or out

[Hugo]

Making the picture frame out of mild steel makes sense, because it doesn't need to be especially strong. But why would the front frame be made out of Reynolds 531, when all it does is hold the bonnet and radiator on?
My friend who has my car has a different approach - rather than mess around with the wired edge on the bonnet, he cuts downwards into the sill, and adjusts that to fit the bonnet rather than the other way round.
I have a feeling that once I get the left hand bonnet hinge in the right place, it will all come right, or at least more right than it was.
I'm not bothered about a 1/8" discrepancy in the side frames, but I'm hanged if I can see where the extra half inch in the front frame has come from. My solution at the moment is simply to drill out the holes in the front frame, but I'd like to know where the problem lies. My friend Terry the panel beater will surely find it when he gets back onto it now that I have stripped everything down for him - he has an incredible eye for such things, despite having suffered from diabetes for many years, which has taken its toll on his vision, and he can hardly see a thing
He even manages to weld with his eyes shut! perhaps I should re-name him Tommy (as in 'pin-ball Wizard'.)

[christopher storey]

Hugo : the bonnet frame needs to be strong. The weight of the bonnet alone at a guess is about 175 lbs, most of which is at the front, and the radiator with coolant probably weighs another 30 lbs. Every bump you go over produces a loading in addition to weight on the extremity of the frame where the pivots are, and that load is multiplied by the distance to the fastening points to the picture frame. Each time the car stops rising over a bump there is a load reversal and negative g applied to that structure....... you get the idea? Malcolm Sayer was not an aircraft engineer for nothing , and the bonnet mounting is rather the same problem as engine mountings in aircraft

[Hugo]

Just use thicker mild steel? ;-) I see your point, but all cars have to be strong enough to support heavy weights being bounced around, and they don't resort to specialised steel for it. The weight of the bonnet, radiator etc is about the same as a Morris Minor engine. I know it's poking out the front a lot, but I have a feeling that Mr Sayer instinctively went with the material he knew rather than deeming it a strict mechanical necessity.
One thing I noticed even before I removed the picture frame and front (bonnet) frame, and which has become much more noticeable now they're off, is how 'springy' the whole front frame assembly is. Even when fully assembled, if you hit it with your fist (which seems an odd thing to do, in hindsight) you can see it move a bit, which surprised me.
My (cheapskate) solution to my own problem is to drill out the holes in both front flanges on the left hand main frame to 3/8" (10mm). That should get my picture frame level. The drill out the holes in the front frame to 3/8" or even 1/2" (13mm). That should hopefully get my bonnet somewhere near level again.
There are ten bolts clamping it all together so it's not going to go anywhere in a hurry.

[mgcjag]

Hi Hugo...dont you want to find out whats wrong befor doing your fix.......extra large holes lets you move the picture frame around on the frames but its not correct ...if i understand your fix correctly the picture frame then wont be level(probably isnt now)....so what happens when you jack the car under the picture frame, the larger holes made for movement will then move and twist

[Hugo]

Well that's the puzzle! The side frames are 1/8" out at the front. That I can live with. Then the picture frame drops a further 1/8" because the flanges on the front of the side frames aren't quite level. Then, and this is where it gets really weird, the front frame drops a further 3/8" - 1/2" within itself, and I can't see where the discrepancy lies. The end result of all this is that the bonnet sits 5/8" to 3/4" low on the left side.
I could bite the bullet and buy a new front frame I suppose, but as it's not a particularly important part of the car I'm tempted to take the easy way out.
There are ten bolts on each side clamping the picture frame to the side frames, so that's not going to go anywhere.
I just had an idea driving back from the shop, and that is to make some eccentric bonnet mounting lugs, or rather just one for the left side, as the right side is in the right place.
While it's all in bits, I'm planning to mastic a length of wood under the picture frame to make it easier to jack up in future. Once I've knocked all the dents out of the bottom lip, that is!

[Series1 Stu]

When I reassembled my frames I set everything up to the book and it all went fine until it came to the left hand lower mounting into the chassis rail. Here, the hole in the rail was slightly out of position. The reaction plate mounting points were fine but the hole for the through bolt was about an eighth of an inch out. I made up some plates and set these up on the left hand rail after enlarging the incorrect holes. The patches were tacked in place and everything stripped down while they were fully welded up. Everything was sweet after that.

Can you not get the adjustment back in the bonnet using the usual shims above and behind the pivot blocks?

PS I have a piece of suitably treated oak set into the picture frame channel. It is size for size with the channel and retained using cable ties. I wouldn't use mastic as it will eventually part company with the frame and you'll get the timber cartwheeling along the road under your car at 70mph.