The 'E' Type Forum

Hi all,

This subject has been addressed many times but I didn't find a clear answer to my specific issue.
My 3.8 FHC has a set of MWS chrome wire wheels in very good condition (apparently from 1998, made in India) fitted with Michelin XAS, still lot of rubber (only 5000 km on them) and behave well but need probably a change because of age.
The tyres are in principle mounted with tubes of the same age and have been holding air with no issue up to now.

Yesterday I checked the spokes tightness by gently hurting them with a small spanner and discovered that a few spokes were loose.
It is not impossible that adjustment of the spokes was never done before, as the car was not driven much from the years 2000 when these new wheels were purchased.
First loose spoke seemed to come OK, but when I attempted to do it on a second one, I heard a slight characteristic leak noise. I went back smoothening the tension and apparently the leak decreased and stopped, also checked with soapy water.
However, coming back to the first spoke, the soapy water showed that it was also leaking and I could not recover a leak-free setting through tightening or smoothening of the spoke.

So my questions are the following:
- if tubes provide air sealing in the wheels, why was a leak appearing only when I tightened spokes? Could it be that the tube was already leaking and that tyres mounted on "new" MWS wire wheels are "sealed" (because maybe there is some kind of sealing around the nipples of the spokes that may be damaged when the spokes are tightened for the first time)? Or could it be that I damaged the tube when I tightened spokes?
- subject to verification when repairing the wheel, should I attempt to recover some kind of sealing with a silicone product around the nipples (in addition to new tube and rubber fitting) or is that useless because eventual spoke setting will damage it anyway?

MWS wheels are notorious for having the spokes come loose and if there are more than three or four per wheel you may need them sent back to MWS for truing but that will cost almost as much as a new set of wheels! Suggest you use a small quality spanner and tap each spoke - you will quickly understand the difference in tone between a loose and tight spoke. Put a piece of masking tape around each loose spoke and then you can decide how good or bad things are. The service manual has a section on how to adjust and true the wheels after a loose or broken spoke:
Wheels & Tyres: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2k224tjclwfo ... s.pdf?dl=1

If you are lucky, and there are only a few spokes you may well be able to tighten them.

As regards the loss of air I would suggest you have a slow puncture in the tube but the tyre itself is containing the air. This is dangerous so do not drive the car until you have a fix! Worst case - a blow out at speed. So get the tyres and tubes off the wheels and consider your course of action with the spokes.

My car was with CMC for service work in 2008 and they found all four MWS 6" competition SS wheels to have loose spokes - indeed almost every outer spoke! The wheels were eight years old and had done 18,000. Never occurred to me to check the spokes for tightness - you need to do it annually.

Thank you David, always useful advice.
I know you fitted Borrani's and that apparently their spokes hold better (at a price...).
On the other hand, Dayton's are sold as leak free (enabling in principle the use of tubeless), maybe also meaning a better spokes sealing and holding upon time.
Would it mean that MWS's have a poorer spokes fitting requiring a more frequent tightening than other brands?

You can now buy MWS and Dayton wheels suitable for tubeless tyres which involves sealing the rim on the inside. All wire wheels can be prone to loose or broken spokes, hence the advice Jaguar gave to owners in the Service Manual. I have a set of Borrani's and they are superb but the price now is double what I paid. MWS are the only ones I have heard of with loose spokes, confirmed by Dougal at Longstone Tyres who has seen lots.

Identify the loose spokes (car on a jack) and tighten any that are loose. If more than 15 per wheel are loose then I would guess they will need to be serviced and rebuilt. I had a set of mine rebuilt by MWS and 10 years ago and the price was £100 per wheel + VAT. Once you have the tyres off you can make up a jig as per Jaguar instructions to see if they are still true. If not you will get vibration and steering wheel wobble that no amount of balancing will cure.

Hi Serge....had my MWS tubeless wire wheels for 8 years....never had a leak or a loose spoke.......out of interest did you have rim bands fitted to prevent the inertubes rubbing on the ends of the spokes

Heuer wrote: Identify the loose spokes (car on a jack) and tighten any that are loose. If more than 15 per wheel are loose then I would guess they will need to be serviced and rebuilt. I had a set of mine rebuilt by MWS and 10 years ago and the price was £100 per wheel + VAT. Once you have the tyres off you can make up a jig as per Jaguar instructions to see if they are still true. If not you will get vibration and steering wheel wobble that no amount of balancing will cure.

David,
When checking the spokes with a spanner, most of them had a similar sound (not exactly the same but close) with one tone for the inner ring of shorter spokes and another one, lower, for the outer ring of longer spokes.
Except a couple of them per ring typically, so it should be still tunable, I hope so.
I can perform spokes tightening, within a limit. Hoping that the wheels will remain sufficiently true.
Not sure I will perform myself a truing of wheels, it requires a specific jig (and probably experience) that I don't have...
And rebuilding the wheels is not worth as you say.
Will see

mgcjag wrote:Hi Serge....had my MWS tubeless wire wheels for 8 years....never had a leak or a loose spoke.......out of interest did you have rim bands fitted to prevent the inertubes rubbing on the ends of the spokes

Steve,
You're apparently lucky wrt spokes.
I don't know if the rim bands were fitted or correctly fitted (was made at the time of the PO).
I will know better when I have the wheel repaired

Just collected three MWS "tubeless" wheels after a three month and more than £400 repair. Wheels were all stainless and less than three years old. One or two loose spokes per wheel. Any attempt to tighten them caused immediate loss of the seal, which is a hard setting band applied above all the nipples. Loose spokes can only be fixed by a factory full rebuild. MWS declined to make any contribution to the cost and are not good to deal with in my experience. I'll be buying Daytons in future.
Cheers

Heuer wrote:The service manual has a section on how to adjust and true the wheels after a loose or broken spoke:
Wheels & Tyres: https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2k224tjclwfo ... s.pdf?dl=1

As someone who's trued and rebuilt bicycles wheels, I've just read the section on rebuilding E-type wheels for interest. Sheesh! How brave would you have to be to undertake a complete rebuild yourself!

Whitact wrote: MWS declined to make any contribution to the cost and are not good to deal with in my experience. I'll be buying Daytons in future.
Cheers

Dayton has a unique process (no clue what it is that they do) that guarantees that their wire wheels will never need truing. I bought a set of their SS tubeless wheels about two years ago, have done around 5-6000 miles and have had no leaks, even after several months over the winter, and all of the spokes pass the "ring when tapped" test. I'm a very satisfied customer.

Heuer wrote:You can now buy MWS and Dayton wheels suitable for tubeless tyres which involves sealing the rim on the inside.

Well, sort of. I have just fitted a set of Dayton 'tubeless' wire wheels to one of my Corvairs in Florida. Two of the wheels were leaking from just one spoke. A squirt of 'slime' fixed the problem. The rim sealing looked extremely well done, but obviously wasn't quite as good as it looked.