The 'E' Type Forum

Hi guys,

I decided to give up bleeding the clutch from under the car. Maybe it is even harder then normal using silicone fluid, but thats it.

I route the input pipe along where the standard pipe goes, just longer, and enter the cylinder from below. And leave on top. And fit a brake pipe coupling and a bleed nipple from the old clutch cylinder just on the rear edge of the inlet manifold.

Hope it's easier this way. Will find out.

Carsten

This is what I came up with tonight. Have not tested it, but I believe it should work:






Carsten

Hi Carsten.....silicone shouldnt make any difference to the bleeding, cant see why your remote wont work, sounds like a good idea... Steve

My mechanic uses a small oil can with an adaptor on it which connects to the nipple on the slave cylinder. He then squeezes the oil can filled with clutch fluid, forcing it up through the system and any air out the top into the reservoir. Clutch is bled in less than a minute.

Silicone keeps mikro- bubbles much longer, that's the main reason.

Will fill my system later and report back. But it's quiet a bitch to fit, due to lack of space down there.

Carsten

How often are you planning to bleed your clutch?
As regards silicone fluid, I don't like it. It will leak where 'traditional' brake fluid won't. It's like the difference between water and anti-freeze. I once had a bus with a hydraulic throttle that I had switched over to silicone fluid. It started leaking quite badly. As a short-term bodge, just to keep it on the road till I could change the seal, I topped it up with vegetable fluid (if that's still what it's made from). Over a period, as the old-type fluid replaced the silicone, the leak eased up and eventually stopped altogether. I never did replace the seal.

Well, bein german I sometime over-do it. I cannot stop that from happening !

I couldn't really bleed it first-time, so I gave up and built this. I also have remote bleeders, self made, on the rear. Bleed from the inside ! of the car.

Dot is not an option. On my Imp, I can see what it does to the system when the car becomes stationery. On my Traction, it's fine...and on all Citroens of course.

Carsten

I presume you mean LM mineral oil for the Citroens?

Yes. DS and SM both run on LHM, the green mineral oil they use in their cars since 1967. I never had a failure with Citroen brakes.

The Traction and the E are being converted to Silicone.

The Imp kit still has DOT in it- and its brakes do rust and bind and so on.

Carsten

Hugo wrote: As regards silicone fluid, I don't like it. It will leak where 'traditional' brake fluid wont

During my restoration I filled the (new) clutch and brake systems with DOT5 fluid. No leaks, solid pedal from both systems. Works great for me so far. FWIW. YMMV.

Durango2k wrote:Yes. DS and SM both run on LHM, the green mineral oil they use in their cars since 1967. I never had a failure with Citroen brakes.
The Traction and the E are being converted to Silicone.
Carsten

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Or as the politicians would say, "If it ain't broke, fix it till it is".

I am pretty sure old Dot seals better then silicone. Silicone is thinner, plus rust forms where dot seeps out so...the rust stops the dripping.

I had a few joints needing re-shaping of the bullet style ends, or re-torquing.

Carsten

Found today that the clutch master cyl failed a bit- the pedal came loose and went up.

The circlip came loose due to some rust in the groove. Another bich of a job, but did it.

Will investigate with Felix- he'll operate the pedal, I will be under the car in the pit and find out how it mooves.

Problem is- maybe-

a) no spring to slave: bearing will wear fast because it will be in constant touch I think.

b) spring fitted- maybe too much play.

Carsten

Did what? If you have rust pushing the circlip out you need a new cylinder!

It was a bit of rust. But only in the groove of the clip, the rest is fine. It's an overhauled item. Zero leaks, and builds up pressure.

As I said- I have to find out what happens under the car, how far does the arm moove, and is it sufficient ?

The pedal was very high, this is how I noticed it. I wonder why they did only fit a limiter bolt for the brake pedal, but not for the clutch. Saving another shilling ?

Carsten

Hi Carsten,

I ended up making an adjustable pushrod for mine so I can fine tune the height.
I think the reason Jaguar didn't put an adjustable stop on like the brake pedal is that this could possibly limit the stroke of the piston and thus the amount the release fork moves.
By making an adjustable pushrod I still get the full displacement of fluid.



Simon

Durango2k wrote:It was a bit of rust. But only in the groove of the clip, the rest is fine. It's an overhauled item. Zero leaks, and builds up pressure.
Carsten

Something doesn't sound right here. It takes a heck of a lot of rust to grow the metal so much that it will push a circlip out of its groove. In fact I've never known it happen. So where did all this rust come from? If it's an overhauled item, did they assemble it like that, with the groove filled with rust? And how can the circlip groove get so rusty and the bore still be ok? Those questions would worry me if it were mine.

...as it looked clean underneath, and only some rust / debris was around the clip, this was my conclusion. Maybe the clip did not have enough tension ? Old style clip with the small tabs on it.

Cleaned, bent it a bit open, greased the area well, put back together.

Next is checking moovement and so on, to verify its function.

But no need to swap it now. Really, the bore looked new. Maybe because there was zero paint on it ?


Carsten

Step forward: I think I now understand the problem, but, have no solution.

Here's a video link:



If I take the external spring away / off the slave cylinder, it slowly fills with fluid. Fine. When pressing the master cylinder, it de-clutches.

Only problem is that th slave seems to have no "travel limiter". The piston does not come out, but the clutch graphite bearing will always be in contact with the disc and wear out too soon. It really expands and stretches the rubber cap, I've seen that.

If I leave the spring fitted, then it compresses the slave to almost zero length - the bolt then becomes very loose. We're talking about 1.5 cms travel or more. This means that almost all of the fluid which comes down from the master does nothing. Clutch does not de-clutch, finally.

So:

a) no spring (Jaguar called it hydrostatic ?) means "the clutch bearing will fail soon",

b) spring fitted: use a very long / longer ! rod, so that the slave is at length zero (not expanded at all), and adjust for 2 mm play. The spring will hind the cylinder from expanding too far out.

No one could tell me (yet) which system is in my car, maybe a mix of parts. The clutch is not a 3-finger-clutch, but a modern 9.5 diaphragma type. It had a 10 inch diaphragma fitted when I took it apart, but that was fitted in the late 1960s.

Slave cyl. is a repro item from SNG, same length as the one I took off.

Carsten

I'm not really familiar with these clutch mechanisms (yet! I haven't got to that stage on my car) but from what I understand there are two types of slave cylinder mechanism; one with a spring and an adjustable pushrod where you have to set the clearance when the piston is fully retracted; the other without a spring and with no adjustment, where the piston just drifts down the bore till it comes into contact with something, which hopefully will be the release bearing hitting the clutch. I believe these used a longer pushrod. I have a feeling this was the system fitted to later cars but I believe it was troublesome. I myself prefer an adjustable clutch, but of course a self-adjusting clutch saves a few pennies on servicing costs.
What you don't want is a self-adjusting clutch with too short a pushrod, or the piston will just drop out on the floor (unless there's a circlip holding it, in which case the pedal will go solid).
Please don't take this as gospel - it is just what I have picked up along the way from reading other posts. No doubt others will shoot me down in flames if I'm wrong.