Crack in the right Engine Frame, need advice.

[Pex]

Started to disassemble the front due to my front suspension renovation but found more disturbing things then sloppy steering

There is a crack in what Iooks like an old welding on the right front engine frame.

Need some advice how to tackle this, should I just open the wallet and by a new one and in that case from where do you recommend me to buy it from?

SNG Barratt has one uprated which is almost twice as expensive then the other one they sell.
Do I dare to buy a used one?

Is it possible to change the engine frame by just supporting the engine, the whole car is lifted on my two pillar lift so there is no load on the engine as I see it.

[rswaffie]

Hi
Engine frames are critical for keeping the car in one piece. It’s not practical or safe to try and weld them - the Reynolds tubing was brazed I believe and welding will more than likely not work.
New is the safest route unless you can find some pristine, straight second hand items with no internal rust which again is unlikely.
There are plenty of threads on the forum regarding where to get these from new.

[angelw]

Hello Peter,
The type of tube used in the manufacture of original E Type frames can be welded, but its not straight forward; post weld heat treatment is required and is difficult to achieve, given that the frame member joints are braised. It is profoundly common for those that have made a repair to an E Type frame have no metallurgical knowledge and have unwittingly made a stuff up of the repair that is doomed to failure some time in the future.

The best way to repair an existing frame is to replace the whole, damaged tube and use the same joint method as originally used (a brazed joint). Unfortunately, the cross section profile of the tube used is a special run and is tantamount to being made of a material known as unobtainium. Accordingly, I suggest replacing the frame as the best solution.

The cheaper frame from SNG Barratt (a Martin Robey produced item) will be OK if its geometry is the same, within a small tolerance, of the original. This can be determined by setting the tub up level and checking the level of the two engine frames with the new one introduced.

One, or both frames can be replaced without removing the engine. One is quite simple, in that the engine only has to be supported from beneath (I use a thick piece of timber that covers the bottom surface of the sump; to spread the load, and jack stands), with the engine prevented from falling over by the remaining engine frame. If both frames are to be replaced, they can be done one at a time, with each in turn preventing the engine from toppling over, or, as I have done, make an A Frame out of timber that catches the lip of the sump (where the securing bolts are) to stop the engine toppling either way.

Regards,

Bill

[Pex]

At least I can do the change myself, so now I need to do some investigation where to buy the engine frame, have to check some Swedish suppliers first but probably they to just order them from same place as I will.

[abowie]

Executive summary:

buy and fit a pair of new frames for the lowest price you can get.


Waffly bit:

Yes it needs replacement. As above repair isn't really practical, and if it's broken in one place who's to say that it isn't also broken elsewhere. Sorry to say but your other frame is just as suspect.

Don't buy used, they rust from the inside as well and you can't tell.

I am always bemused by the availability of "upgraded" engine frames. While after more than 50 years the originals do crack and rust, in good condition they do not spectacularly fail while driving, which indicates to me that the original design is good.

The concept of substituting a thicker/stiffer tube and then saying that it's better doesn't make sense. The cars were engineered to allow for the flex in the frames. If you stop this from happening, all you do is transfer that torque elsewhere with the potential for damage to the body or to the fasteners holding the frame in place. This is as true in racing (one of the manufacturer's arguments for the "upgrade") as in sedate driving.

The standard frames sold by all the usuals are perfectly adequate. I'm not even sure what SNGB's "upgraded" frames consist of, and if you want really expensive you can buy Uryk's.

People will try to tell you that, for example, Uryk's frames will fit your car perfectly but you'll struggle to get the "cheap" ones to fit. In reality, if you measure them, all the frames are within tolerance to a very small error, regardless of manufacturer. They are after all assembled on a jig made to fine tolerances using exactly the same processes. IF the frame isn't a good fit to your car it is not the frame that is the problem, but the quite variable geometry of the car's body.

I have worked part time for a company that restores E Types for about 10 years now. In that time we must have done ground up restos on easily 20 cars and we have a very low threshold for replacing the front frames. I've also restored 3 of my own E types. I have fitted sets of frames from all the manufacturers including a couple of sets from Uryk and I can tell you that with some cars fitting is easy and with some it's really difficult, and that who made the frames makes no difference, because it's the car body that makes the difference.

[Pex]

Thanks once more
I have checked both frames and I can clearly see that the one with the crack has been damaged in the past and is bended slightly upwards after the crack.
I decided just to replace the right side and order everything from SNG to keep down the shipping cost.

[Pex]

Maybe a little of topic here but thought i keep it in this thread.
I need to remove the lower fulcrum block which is mounted in the picture frame.
Is it possible to remove the whole picture frame and separate it from the engine frames without supporting the engine, seems to me like the engine frames is support enough.
Can’t find any information regarding this, maybe I don’t know correct terms for the search.
I will support the engine later when i change the damaged engine frame but would like to dissemble as much as possible so I can send everything for soda blasting.

[mgcjag]

Hi Peter....removeing the picture frame without supporting the engine would not be advisable...and the frames would probably twist or colapse......it only takes a few minutes to put supports in below the engine..timber blocks below the sump would be ideal then you could remove everything....Steve

[Series1 Stu]

I don't think it's necessary to remove the picture frame in order to remove the fulcrum blocks. Just remove the bolts and 'tap' out the block.....

Definitely don't remove the picture frame without supporting the engine first.

Regards

[Pex]

It's like I suspected then, the Picture Frame is not a supporting construction for the engine but more to prevent the engine frames from twisting.

But to remove the fulcrum block I must remove the 4 bolts which which holds the picture frame to the engine frame and then put them back again to keep everything in place. I will replace the block with a piece of wood so I can tighten the bolts until I remove the damaged engine frame.

I must remove the picture frame from both engine frames at some point since I want to repaint it together with the new engine frame but right now I would like to get all front suspension parts of the car.

[PeterCrespin]

It's like I suspected then, the Picture Frame is not a supporting construction for the engine but more to prevent the engine frames from twisting.

The frames are an integrated package, distributing shifting loads throughout the triangulated network of tubes, reaction plate and tub.

You might as well say your pelvis is not a supporting construction for your spine, it's to stop your legs falling off.

[Pex]

It was a fun comparison
I do not want to start any debate here, but the picture frame actually adds weight to engine frames and is not a supporting construction in itself. Its main feature, as I see it, is to make the entire structure torsional. Engine frames can handle the weight of the engine by itself but only in one dimension.

[PeterCrespin]

Good. It was meat to be fun, not argumentative. However, you are abandoning logic because a frame that only supports in one dimension is no support at all because there is no condition in which there is only one dimension in operation:

Here's a very simplified non-engineer's analysis:
Car static, vertical deflection: Top tubes in compression against upper bulkhead, in tension at lower tubes.
Car static, horizontal: Without the picture frame the frames would splay at the front.
Car static, rotational: Weight of engine, moment of wishbones would twist/splay the frames despite reaction plate taking most of the load.

Car moving - add dynamic forces
Car on front axle stands,
Car jacked up at rear, etc. etc.

The tubes are arranged in three dimensions to deal with forces in three dimensions. I understand what you mean, of course, but words are important. Saying "...the picture frame...is not a supporting construction... Its main feature... is to make the entire structure torsional..." is an oxymoron. Making it torsional means supporting it, against twisting.

"The pelvis just adds weight. It is not supporting construction. Its main feature is to stop your bowel falling out when you sit, stand or move."

[christopher storey]

"The pelvis just adds weight. It is not supporting construction. Its main feature is to stop your bowel falling out when you sit, stand or move."

I think I'm feeling sick

[Series1 Stu]

and don't forget that the picture frames also have suspension components hung off them too......

[tim wood]

I think this this approach to a relatively simple but detailed task is going the wrong way. It’s a spannering job.
If it were me I would remove the bonnet and frame, radiator, suspension , picture frame and work towards the affected side frame.

Supporting the engine with blocks etc is a must.

Just my 2cents worth!

[tim wood]

Surprisingly an engine frame has just appeared on eBay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JAGUAR-E-TYP ... SwxW9d-l6b

Most people say no to used engine frames but this seller has been around a while and seems confident.
No recommendation