EDIS question

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myJagV12
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#1 EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Tue May 11, 2021 7:42 pm

I read some articles about existing EDIS solutions but none of them is using COP (coil on plug) ignition coils and almost all use wasted spark coils for 12 cylinder engines or 2 coils with split distributor fingers.
I know such would not look nice but from a technical point of view should be the best solution (from my level of understanding).

Is anyone of you using COP ignition on his E-Type ?

Best Regards
Tom
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#2 Re: EDIS question

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed May 12, 2021 8:52 pm

IMO using COP on an E is to exchange one level of clutter for another. EDIS gets rid of clutter without needing to hide everything under a valley cover like my 6.0 XJ12.

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#3 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Thu May 13, 2021 12:56 pm

Hi Peter !
What exactly do you mean with "levels of clutter" ?
IMO with COP coils there would be less clutter - driven from an electronic distributor they would only require a 12V supply bus and all the other components would be obsolete (ballast, coils, Amp).
"EDIS gets rid of clutter" ? You mean existing EDIS solutions with single/double coils ?
BR, Tom

p.s: Maybe I'm not well informed what exactly is called EDIS - i thought an electronic pickup in the dis housing driving COP plugs would also be sort of EDIS ?
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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MarekH
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#4 Re: EDIS question

Post by MarekH » Thu May 13, 2021 3:20 pm

EDIS is a Ford electronic distributorless ignition system which is available as a 4,6 or 8 cylinder solution.
How exactly do you plan on firing 12 cylinders?

kind regards
Marek

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#5 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Thu May 13, 2021 8:29 pm

Oh THX for clarifying Marek !
I thought it was a general abbreviation for "Electronic Distributors".
Well I was inspired by the RUSEFI project and was thinking whether it was possible to design an
electronic circuit fitting in the distributor housing. With a pickup from a toothwheel and sequentially
address all 12 coils (with coil drivers on top). Maybe even include a knock sensor and measure MAP to set
ideal dwell and ignition timings (even allowing multispark at slow revs).
In the RUSEFI project they also drive injectors and interface plenty of other sensors but all the designs are based on STM32 bit ARM4. The coils would all need to be connected to +12V drawing about 7 AMPS sequentially and the coil timing would be done with 4 wire cables (driving VB525SP coil driver) from the distributor housing instead of spark cables.
What do you think ? :D
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#6 Re: EDIS question

Post by MarekH » Fri May 14, 2021 6:16 am

There are several ways to provide distributorless ignition to a v12:-

1/ An ECU with twelve logic level outputs to drive twelve coils (as you wanted)
2/ an ECU to drive six outputs and provide wasted spark ignition to either twin 6coil packs OR thee 4coil packs
3/ an ECU to drive one ignition output to a single Ford 6coil EDIS controller with a delay box to repeat the signal to a second EDIS 6coil controller. This is possible because the Jag v12 is just two 6cylinder engines running 60' crank degrees apart.

Option 3 is probably the simplest and easiest but requires 2 crank sensors 60' apart (one per EDIS unit) and has been done by Philip Lochner as documented on the MSEFI.com website and on jag-lovers.com using a Megasquirt-2.

Option 2 is also very common. My car runs Megasquirt-3. The ignition is provided by 6 BIP373 transistors and this is documented in the manuals on MSextra.com Only one crank sensor is needed.

There is no particular advantage in running COP, option 1, but running anything sequentially will require both cam and crank sensors.

Have a read up about the pros and cons of Megasquirt (on this site and on MSextra.com)- all of the other ECUs will be roughly the same capability, but probably fewer people who have a successful installation.

The EDIS solution often quoted on this site is a simple single Ford 6coil EDIS run by a Megajolt for the 6 cylinder cars.

kind regards
Marek

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#7 Re: EDIS question

Post by Fspp369 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:24 am

On this theme,
Does anyone have experience of the chap in Norway, Ole, who sells a single unit to do all ignition control in a “normal” or a wasted spark system?
In one variant he discards the distributor completely.

https://mobeck.com/jaguar-v12-efi-kit/

Looks interesting but several questions spring to mind, one of which could be, has anyone used it?
Peter {XKE V12HE efi}
XKRS
RR Phantom 3 1937 Sedanca de Ville.

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#8 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Fri May 14, 2021 9:41 am

MarekH wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 6:16 am
...
1/ An ECU with twelve logic level outputs to drive twelve coils (as you wanted)
.... but running anything sequentially will require both cam and crank sensors.
...
Thank you Marek for the overview given.
So it would not be enough to pick up the position signal from the distributor ?
Why is there a difference when running them sequentially and not wasted spark ?
I thought the toothed wheel gives the ECU an exact position (and speed) signal at any time so having two position sensors would not be of any benefit (but I also read of crank and camshaft-sensor combinations).
Sure the distributor pickup is not exactly precise due to wear out and the gear but would that even matter ?

BR, Tom
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#9 Re: EDIS question

Post by MarekH » Fri May 14, 2021 11:27 am

A toothed wheel on the distributor does indeed tell you the crank location and whether you are on the compression stroke. The typical setup is for a 36 minus 1 (or sixty minus two) wheel on the crank and for a single tooth on the cam to tell you phase. The more teeth, the more accurate the location and information about whether the crank is accelerating or deaccelerating. Putting that information onto the distributor drive will mean a loss of accuracy in spark and fuel timing as the jackshaft is chain driven from the crank. The wear and tear does matter if you want an accurately delivered spark and a conventional distributor may +/- 5' out for any number of reasons.

A wasted spark system only uses half as many ECU address outputs as a fully sequential ignition, so is easier and cheaper to implement from a hardware point of view. It is only relatively recently that ECU power has delivered increased capabilities and very few ECUs even contemplated the twelve cylinder market as it is very small compared to the v8 market.

kind regards
Marek

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#10 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Fri May 14, 2021 12:02 pm

MarekH wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 11:27 am
... Putting that information onto the distributor drive will mean a loss of accuracy in spark and fuel timing as the jackshaft is chain driven from the crank. The wear and tear does matter if you want an accurately delivered spark and a conventional distributor may +/- 5' out for any number of reasons.
...
But if one picks the signal up directly from the crank it might be more precise in terms of piston position but valve timing might be off for the same reasons. I was wondering how to time best when crank and camshaft positions where available - it would always remain a compromise no ? Having an additional crank sensor would make the "clutter" worse and would not so much affect the main advantages of an electronic system as long as no EFI is implemented. Advancing/retarding/multisparks/ideal dwell time/reduced emissions/smoother running/no spark cables/reduced consumption.... for the costs of ugly looking spark plugs.
And shouldn't any (modern non OPUS) electronic solution be better than centrifugal advancing/vaccuum retarding/insufficient spark energy at high rpm ... ?

BR, Tom
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#11 Re: EDIS question

Post by lowact » Fri May 14, 2021 1:09 pm

Here is pic of my sequential ignition CnP (coil near plug) arrangement, also distributor converted to 36-1 cam position sensor.
Image
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#12 Re: EDIS question

Post by Fspp369 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:43 pm

Colin, do you have any pictures of the completed installation?
Peter {XKE V12HE efi}
XKRS
RR Phantom 3 1937 Sedanca de Ville.

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#13 Re: EDIS question

Post by MarekH » Fri May 14, 2021 1:47 pm

Yes, any mapped electronic distributor based upon a trigger wheel will be better than a mechanical distributor.

You have many choices as to how to do this and all methods involve some degree of problem solving and custom fabrication, either mechanically or electrically. The easiest way to do it is to simply copy somebody else's working setup. Both Philip and I have had Jag v12s running either a batch fired twin EDIS or fully sequential systems for ten years now.

kind regards
Marek

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#14 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:57 pm

lowact wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 1:09 pm
Here is pic of my sequential ignition CnP (coil near plug) arrangement, also distributor converted to 36-1 cam position sensor.
Looks great Colin !
The pictured coil looks quite heavy and the ALU-cooler on top let's me assume that the coil driver sits on top of the coil. Do you know the characteristics of the coil like AMPS, dwell time, and which spark plugs do you use ?

@Marek: That is why I think this could be a good upgrade and I was interesing in existing implementations although I did not plan to EFI upgrade my PRE-HE but only optimize ignition.

Thanks, Tom
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#15 Re: EDIS question

Post by lowact » Fri May 14, 2021 2:13 pm

Is not complete, work in progress, optimistically another 6 months ...
Here is the cam position sensor, Honeywell SNDH-H3P-G01, able to read 3 mm teeth at speed...
Image

The coils are GM spec 19005218, 40kV, built-in drivers, they fit very tidily between the injectors.
Regards,
ColinL
'72 OTS manual V12

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#16 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Fri May 14, 2021 4:18 pm

Well mine is work not even started ;-)

Won't this hall effect sensor be too slow (12kHz) ?

I was thinking of something like MLX91209CA and plan to use two of them for redundancy and to read half teeth.

btw: like the color of your E - did you also paint it opalescent gun metal grey ?
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#17 Re: EDIS question

Post by MarekH » Fri May 14, 2021 4:55 pm

If the car redlines at 7200rpm, that's 3600rpm for the distributor, which is 60revs per second, seeing 2160 teeth per second (36-1 wheel). That's less than 12kHz.

kind regards
Marek

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#18 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Fri May 14, 2021 5:53 pm

Oops of course perfectly right. I made the transistion of rpM to kHz too quickly so I was off by 60 :D :D but having 2 sensors placed with offset still could make sense depending on the ECU.
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Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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#19 Re: EDIS question

Post by MarekH » Fri May 14, 2021 6:30 pm

I'm not sure what a second (redundant) sensor does for you. On a balance of probabilities, it is just as likely to fail as the main sensor and you'd have to programme in how and why to use the new offset not the old one. Exactly how will one Hall effect sensor be more reliable than another?

kind regards
Marek

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#20 Re: EDIS question

Post by myJagV12 » Fri May 14, 2021 6:50 pm

Well thereby you could make 72 out of 36 teeth by offsetting 1/2 toothwith.
Two sensors won't be more reliable (if you have to rely on both) but if one sensor fails ECM could report a sensor failing and continue to operate ?!

What do you think Marek would a knock sensor placed within the distributor housing be detecting engine knocking or does this have to go on the side of the blocks ?

Btw: if you have both cam and crank position sensors - which to rely on ... ;-)
E-Type Series 3 2+2, automatic, Feb 73, not back on the road yet ...
Thank you for sharing your knowledge !!!

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