noisy starter motor problems
#1 noisy starter motor problems
Hi All, have just firing up my engine for the first time since my resto began , a great and relieving day but have a horribly noisy starter motor problem. The P.O. had purchased an alloy flywheel from Gran Turismo Jaguar in 2001 [ part no. GTJF2 ] which is fitted to the engine and i had reconditioned the original lucas m45 starter which was fitted but was terribly noisy, i put this down to the worn pinion gear on the starter running on the new ring gear as the cause of the noisy operation and purchased a new Hi Torque starter here in Oz made for 4.2 e type xk engine. Once fitted this starter is also terribly noisy [ cannot even hear if the engine has fired !! ]. Having now had 2 starters on the engine i am starting to wonder if the flywheel ring gear is the issue and wondered if anyone out there has had any previous issues with these Gran Turismo flywheels as the cause of the problem ?? The supplier of the new hi torque starter assures me they have had no previous issues like this and the long time parts supplier who recommended this starter has never had issues in supplying them either. Any help to solve this problem would be much appreciated. TIA Paul
Paul
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
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#2 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Paul.....on a standard 4.2 setup there is aspacer fitted between the starter motor and bell houseing held in place with small ring dowls....it is not unusual when removeing a starter for the spacer to come away with it.....then when fitting a new starter the spacer is forgotton about and left off.....this will cause noisy turnover as the pinion isnt mating tne flywheel correctly........also note that care needs to be taken with hi torque starters and the correct model used.....some manufacturers make theirs not needing a spacer and some need them.....in adition to this the teeth on the pinion need to match tbe teeth on tbe flywheel. ....4.2 flywheels have a different number of teath tban 3.8 wheels. ...so check you have the correct fly fitted...Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#3 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Thanks Steve, have triple checked everything before installing, ring gear has 133 teeth, pinion gear is 9 tooth with 29mm diameter, no spacer required with hi torque starter otherwise outer mesh is too great. Trying to get the manufacture to help solve the issue, have send video's and photo's but no advice forthcoming so thought i'd throw it out on here. Your advice is always appreciated, Paul
Paul
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
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#4 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Paul...what make/model starter do you have......who told you you dont need a spacer with high torque units or are you refering to just the one you have.......Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#5 Re: noisy starter motor problems
I fitted a high torque unit when my old lucas failed.
I was told this by the manufacturer...
"Thank you for your emailed query regarding our replacement Powerlite unit RAC303.
I can confirm that the original spacer must be refitted before installation of our starter motor and UNC style bolts are supplied with our unit.
I hope this helps but please let me know if you have any further concerns."
I was told this by the manufacturer...
"Thank you for your emailed query regarding our replacement Powerlite unit RAC303.
I can confirm that the original spacer must be refitted before installation of our starter motor and UNC style bolts are supplied with our unit.
I hope this helps but please let me know if you have any further concerns."
Gerry.
S2 FHC 1R20003
S2 FHC 1R20003
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#6 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Gerry.....yes correct for that model......as i said above depends on manufacturer/model. .....some are designed with a machined face (in built spacer ) so dont need the original one fitted....Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#7 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Steve, the make is HI TORQUE, made by C.A.E. performance products in Victoria, model G/R-16/4.2 etype, it has the machined/ adjustable position face, the recommended outer mesh is 2-2.5mm, i have 3mm without spacer plate fitted. My concern is the wear on the top of the pinion teeth considering it has only been started 6 or 7 times, suggesting the meshing is too tight which means i would have to move the starter away from the ring gear by machining the collar that locates inside the bell housing and opening up the top bolt hole to allow upwards movement. I have sent video's and pics to the manufacture for assistance but nothing forthcoming from them, hence my post here for help.
Paul
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
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#8 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Paul...unfortunatly im not familiar with that model but haveing the adjustable front plate does to me mean that it isnt made for a particular Jag model.........what bell houseing do you have..a 3.8 or 4.2...........the 4.2 unit has steped holes at the starter fixing points to take the starter locating ring dowles (standard system).......a 3.8 bell has straight drilled holes......starter position is different in 3.8.......4.2 models......Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#9 Re: noisy starter motor problems
If both the stock starter and a correct high torque replacement don't work properly you'd have to suspect that there is something awry with your aftermarket flywheel.
Is the engine out of the car?
Is the engine out of the car?
Andrew.
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia
881824, 1E21538. 889457. 1961 4.3l Mk2. 1975 XJS. 1962 MGB
http://www.projectetype.com/index.php/the-blog.html
Adelaide, Australia
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#10 Re: noisy starter motor problems
I seem to remember discussions about some of the aftermarket starters having pinion gears with incorrect tooth pitch. In which case no amount of altering centre distances and depth of engagement will stop the teeth from getting mashed. This happened to a friend of mine on his '67 911. Cost him a new flywheel and rebalance. He reverted to a reconditioned standard starter motor too.
Near enough doesn't really exist where gear tooth engagement is concerned. Unfortunately, you need some fairly specialised equipment to measure gear tooth pitch to confirm the 2 are compatible. The tooth form of the 2 parts also could be different.
As Andrew says, the tooth pitch error could be on the flywheel ring gear either, or as well.
There are a great number of variables, most of which need a specialist engineering shop to determine where the errors lie.
Regards
Near enough doesn't really exist where gear tooth engagement is concerned. Unfortunately, you need some fairly specialised equipment to measure gear tooth pitch to confirm the 2 are compatible. The tooth form of the 2 parts also could be different.
As Andrew says, the tooth pitch error could be on the flywheel ring gear either, or as well.
There are a great number of variables, most of which need a specialist engineering shop to determine where the errors lie.
Regards
Stuart
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
If you can't make it work, make it complicated!
'62 FHC - Nearing completion
'69 Daimler 420 Sovereign
'78 Land Rover Series 3 109
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#11 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Guys, appreciate your input to this issue, Steve you are on to something. I had the gearbox re-conditioned around10 years ago and remembered the repairer advising me he needed to source another bellhousing to complete the job, my original bellhousing was 4.2 with the recess in bolt holes and it seems a 3.8 bellhousing has been fitted. It is my fault for not being aware of the differences and presuming the job was done properly even when i couldn't use the dowels with the new bellhousing. That aside i will have to adjust starter position to gain correct meshing, Steve would there be any references between the differences of the mounting holes for 3.8 & 4.2 housings ? It must not be much difference as the new starter is engaging and starting the engine, just need to adjust to attempt a better mesh/aglinment. Thanks again for all your help, Paul
Paul
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
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#12 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi All, further research led me to a previous post by trev_car from 2011 with the exact same problem, 4.2 flywheel and starter bolted onto a 3.8 bellhousing, which apparently moves the pinion gear 4mm away from the ring gear, hence the wear on top of the pinion teeth and only 1mm on face of pinion gear. Brise.co.uk make a starter to solve this issue with a mounting plate with a 4mm offset output shaft. As i have an adjustable/removable mounting plate on the new starter will have a similar mounting plate made up an update later how it goes. Appreciate everyone's input which has led me to hopefully resolve this issue, especially your info Steve, always something to learn restoring an E for the first time !!!! Many thanks Paul
Paul
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
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#13 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Paul : I feel for you. When I came to rebuild my early 4.2 , I found that I had a Bendix starter, angled down a few degrees with a home made wedge , a Mark 2 3.4 flywheel ,and a 4.2 bellhousing . What a mess!
I'm afraid the advice I would give will not be welcome ; any further attempt to correct a bodge with yet another bodge will only get you further into the mire . You really need to ensure that you have all 3 components, bellhousing, flywheel , and starter motor to the correct spec for a 4.2
I would add that, IIRC, the 3.8 and 4.2 flywheels differ in overall diameter by about 6mm = 1/4 inch
I'm afraid the advice I would give will not be welcome ; any further attempt to correct a bodge with yet another bodge will only get you further into the mire . You really need to ensure that you have all 3 components, bellhousing, flywheel , and starter motor to the correct spec for a 4.2
I would add that, IIRC, the 3.8 and 4.2 flywheels differ in overall diameter by about 6mm = 1/4 inch
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#14 Re: noisy starter motor problems
When fitting my replacement starter I did some measurements.
Then, I checked the throwout and compared this with the distance back from the mounting face of the bellhousing to the ring gear.
That told me whether the spacer was needed and if it was enough. As for the pinion teeth, this was a simple matter of comparing a count of the teeth and the diameter of the pinion with the OE starter.
Caveat - I did start with a complete and working engine and starter, rather than a box of bits of dubious or unknown origin.
Then, I checked the throwout and compared this with the distance back from the mounting face of the bellhousing to the ring gear.
That told me whether the spacer was needed and if it was enough. As for the pinion teeth, this was a simple matter of comparing a count of the teeth and the diameter of the pinion with the OE starter.
Caveat - I did start with a complete and working engine and starter, rather than a box of bits of dubious or unknown origin.
Last edited by chrisfell on Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Chris '67 S1 2+2
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#15 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Paul.....A mismatch in Jag flywheel, bellhouseing,starter motor is easily solvable.......as far as im aware most of the high torque starter manufacturers can rectify the problem.......the adjustable type you have is purely to enable you to turn the body position and not move the fixing points..........you will need a 3.8 high torque starter with a pinion for a 4.2 flywheel.............Fossways sell them off the shelf and other manufacturers make them to order......its very common on "jag Kit" builds to use mis match parts.......Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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#16 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Guys, quick update on the noisy starter situation. Fitted an offset [ 4mm ] mounting block today, sourced from the starter motor supplier to my gear reduction starter [ that they make for their V12 gear reduction starter ] and it couldn't be any quieter, started a breeze with absolutely no gear noise - problem solved !!! Many thanks for all your input to this issue especially to you Steve who got me on the right track with the bell housing change and the variations available to solve this type of problem. Kind regards from a very happy E type restorer !!!! Paul
Paul
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
68 1.5 2+2 Lhd-Rhd full resto
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#17 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Hi Guys
I have recently undertook an engine out, clutch & gearbox change and took the opportunity to install a new hi torque starter motor at the same time.
Unsurprisingly, I am now experiencing many of the noise issues mentioned in these threads.
My instinct tells me that there may be a mismatch in the bell housing.
My car is an XKE 4.2 S1, but how do I tell if it has a 4.2 or 3.8 bellhousing installed?
The spacer plate is fitted with the starter motor, but there are no locator holes for the dowells which have been removed to allow the motor to be fitted flush to the bellhousing. Would that indicate it is a 3.8 bellhousing?
Any help & advice would be most welcome.
Many thanks
Terry
I have recently undertook an engine out, clutch & gearbox change and took the opportunity to install a new hi torque starter motor at the same time.
Unsurprisingly, I am now experiencing many of the noise issues mentioned in these threads.
My instinct tells me that there may be a mismatch in the bell housing.
My car is an XKE 4.2 S1, but how do I tell if it has a 4.2 or 3.8 bellhousing installed?
The spacer plate is fitted with the starter motor, but there are no locator holes for the dowells which have been removed to allow the motor to be fitted flush to the bellhousing. Would that indicate it is a 3.8 bellhousing?
Any help & advice would be most welcome.
Many thanks
Terry
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#18 Re: noisy starter motor problems
Terry...pm sent................The easiest way to tell is the starter mount holes in a 3.8 bellhouseing are just straight drilled......the holes in the 4.2 are step drilled so that the spigot plate (spacer) fits to the bellhouseing with ring dowles......Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc
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