3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

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scarr27
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#1 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by scarr27 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:25 pm

Hi,
I thought I would do this post hoping that it may help someone out there.
I have recently completed my 1962 3.8 restoration to the point where I thought I would do a trial spin round the block. This is when a common problem I’ve read about on here showed itself. The brakes not releasing! The rear brakes were dragging and were hot. I had to crack off the output line at the master cylinder to release the pressure so I could limp home. On inspection it was clear that the pressure in the rear master cylinder (top one) was locked in and not releasing once the pedal pressure was released.
I read all the posts on this forum I could find about this problem where a variety of possible solutions / causes were discussed. This post by ‘Rory’ was particularly interesting.... (Thank you Rory)

viewtopic.php?t=4120

It showed the workings of the brake linkages and master cylinder (MC) components in great detail. But what I needed to know was what was happening within the MC as it is operating to see what could be stopping the pressure from equalising. I came across this illustration of a standard MC on-line......

Image

It’s shown in the ‘at rest’ position i.e foot not on the brake. What I noticed is that there is a gap at the back of the MC where there’s a valve (Normally Open). This is the input from the reservoir. So, ‘at rest’, there should be no internal pressure as it should be open to the reservoir which is at atmospheric pressure.
With my MC off the car (and drained of fluid) I figured if I blew down the outlet the air should come out of the inlet (due to the gap) and vice versa.
It didn’t! Now all I have to do is find out why!
After having it in bits for half an hour and trying to figure out why my MC had no gap at the bottom, the penny dropped! There’s a concaved washer (‘W’ in the illustration above) that holds the push-rod in along with a circlip. The concaved washer on mine was in the wrong way round!

Image

The consequence of this is that the inner piston assembly is pushed further into the cylinder. Far enough to close up any gap at the bottom. I turned the washer round, reassembled it and all was good. Air passed through the inlet and outlet as it should.
I don’t’ know who made this mistake (probably me) but it just goes to show how something so simple can cause big problems.
Anyway, one of the reasons for the post is that I read that this problem often occurs after people have had their original MC’s refurbished. A suggested possible reason for this was that the new seals they install are not as good as the originals. This may well be true but I wondered if it’s also a possibility that they too have had that push-rod washer inserted the wrong way round when rebuilding them? Might be worth a look if you’re having a similar problem. Cheaper than forking out for a brand new MC!

cheers
Sean
3.8 62 - FHC

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tinworm
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#2 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by tinworm » Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:58 pm

I'm glad you have solved your problem Sean. Just an observation though - the 3.8 is not the one that suffers from brake dragging - its the 4.2's from my experience !
Happy E-type motoring.

Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#3 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by scarr27 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:17 am

Thanks Barry.
These cars keep us on our toes!

I'll have to disagree with you on it only affecting 4.2 E-Types though.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3028&hilit=LOCKING+BRAKES

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3.8 62 - FHC

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#4 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by mgcjag » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:51 am

From the 3.8 section service manual ...so basically anything preventing full return of piston in the cylinder can caus brake bind or lock up.....Steve
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Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#5 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by tinworm » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:28 am

Yes thats the same for any brake circuit Steve - and I don't think many problems are Jaguars fault. Jaguar gave us the spec's and expect us to adhere to them after all.
On a rebuilt car (especially a rebuilt car) I leave the car on 4 axle stands for initial brake testing and with engine running at say 2000 rpm I shove hard on the pedal after lifting off the throttle (all in the garage - don't gas yourself with fumes) turn off the engine and check all wheels are free to rotate - then check all pipes (carefully) for leaks. Finally I would get someone else to press on the pedal a small amount (ie increasing pressure) while I walk round and round the car feeling the brake drag to see its even on all wheels. Just doing this little ritual can save hassle/danger.
Something else on Dunlop brakes to maybe be aware of is the repro brake pads currently out there. I have had a set with the retractor plates badly fixed to the pad and won't fit the retractor pin - also they are too wide for the caliper frame and will jam the pad against the surface of the disc giving the dragging brakes we are considering here.
Another thing with the 3.8 is the different master cylinders between front and back and why they are different. I furnished Rory with some original parts some years ago and he wrote a long piece about his brakes on this forum - well worth a read.

Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#6 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by mgcjag » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:39 am

Hi Barrie....sorry my post wasnt for you but for the original poster to show that its detailed in the service manual that the piston should always be able to fully retract.........i do the same as you.....fully test in the garage...Steve
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#7 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by tinworm » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:42 am

Sorry Steve - my confusion.

Barrie
1968 E-type roadster, 1964 E-type fixed head 1995 Ferrari 355 1980 Ferrari 308 1987 V8 90 Landrover 1988 Bedford rascal van 1943 Ford GPW

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#8 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by mgcjag » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:44 am

Hi Barrie....youve added some great detail and how to test prior to going on the road :salute:
Steve
69 S2 2+2 (just sold) ..Realm C type replica, 1960 xk150fhc

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#9 Re: 3.8 Brakes Locking On After A Master Cylinder Rebuild.

Post by scarr27 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:55 am

Hi Steve,
Yes, I believe that is correct.
Anything preventing the MC cylinder from returning fully can cause that circuit to hydraulically lock.
And it appears that just the smallest amount of load on the push-rod can cause this.
However, the reason for my post was to point out that you can have the necessary clearance in the linkage (as outlined in the service manual you have shown) but still have the MC not retracting fully due to the bevel washer being fitted the wrong way round as I detailed above.
On reading my post again I see that I haven't been very clear on that. I should have stated that the push-rod was free and rattled with the 1/16" clearance so I knew that the MC push-rod wasn't under any force from the linkage. Hence looking into the internal workings of the MC further.
Hope this makes sense.
Sean :salute:
3.8 62 - FHC

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