Front Subframe Possible Issue

[Marcusu]

Hello all,
I’ve put a deposit on an E-Type, but looking at the photos I took while inspecting the underside saw something that may be a crack hiding in the right-side lower engine frame tube.
Any thoughts on what I could be dealing with here?
The car has been restored in 2017, presents really well and drives nicely.

[rswaffie]

Hi
It’s quite difficult to see what that is - I can’t tell if it’s a crack or just paint that has bubbled. Who did the restoration - can you find out if new frames were fitted?
If it’s cracked then you can’t really consider repairing as the reynolds tubing is notoriously difficult to repair as it was brazed originally I believe. I’d walk away if it is cracked or get the seller to get it (or both sides) replaced before you part with the remainder of the cash.

[christopher storey]

Well, I think you need to look at this more closely. It is possible that it is a crack , but it looks to be part of the diagonal stiffener , and so close to where the diagonal stiffener joins the inner lower side frame ( we can't see because it is hidden ) that it may just be the welding ** for the join . I would certainly rule it out as a crack by careful inspection, but my own opinion is that it is likely to be harmless

** As Richard states above , the originals were brazed and are effectively irreparable , but most replacements are now TIG welded or the like

[lowact]

A crack at a weld would be more likely than a crack anywhere else, i.e the fact that there is a weld there means cracking cannot be discounted. Can you ask owner/seller to email u photos of the weld?

[bitsobrits]

Clicking on the photo then zooming right in, it certainly appears to be a crack. So a further in person inspection is required. Remember these frames typically corrode from within, and any crack requires replacement of the subframe. And they generally should be replaced in pairs as their conditions are likely similar.

My own car was a well cared for 42k mile all original machine when purchased, and while doing a detail clean of the engine bay with the car elevated I noticed a hairline crack on one of the lower tubes. That started a really close inspection that found a few paint bubbles that were rust perforations in other tubes. So $4k and much DIY labor later I had a very tidy engine compartment. That was 18 years ago, so would be more expensive today.

I would summarize by saying that no matter how well the car has been cared for, or how nice the restoration is, any E that has not had it's subframes replaced by now need them done. Those tubes, though quite strong, are quite thin and the factory apparently didn't concern themselves with internal corrosion protection of the tubes.

[paydase]

Clicking on the photo then zooming right in, it certainly appears to be a crack.

Unfortunately, yes...

no matter how well the car has been cared for, or how nice the restoration is, any E that has not had it's subframes replaced by now need them done.

Is that always the case if the car has been always used and stored in dry conditions?
Moisture would have to come inside in order to initiate substantial corrosion

the factory apparently didn't concern themselves with internal corrosion protection of the tubes.

Probably true.
But weren't the tubes "treated" in some way before making the frame?

[christopher storey]

Further to my earlier post, I have now been able to zoom in. Although there does appear to be a weld bead there, below that on the picture there does appear to be definite evidence of a crack running from the end of the weld bead to the bottom of the tube . Contrary to what I said earlier, it looks very sinister

[rswaffie]

As it’s looking more and more like a crack, I would consider getting your deposit back and walking away. You could negotiate a sizeable price reduction and get the job done properly but there is a risk that you will find more issues with this ‘so-called’ restored car. Can you get back there and have a really good look at it?

[Series1 Stu]

That is a real pity. It certainly looks like a very nasty crack and both frames should be replaced without delay.

If the seller is amenable then maybe suggest that the work is carried out by a specialist that really understands E Types. You can both be involved in the process so everybody is aware of what is being done.

If the car is as good as you seem to think it is then why lose it for something that can be fixed? The vendor will have to have it repaired anyway. If you walk away from it then you could well be walking into another load of trouble with hidden problems in the next one you consider.

The repair is going to be VERY expensive, probably in the region of £10k so proceed with caution.

Regards

[Gfhug]

Do you have anyone properly knowledgeable about E Types who could inspect the car for you?
You show as in Oz and there are several from there on the forum who know the cars extremely well.
Why not get in touch. Maybe they could suggest a sensible compromise price and they fit new frames for you?

Geoff

[abowie]

Hello all,
I’ve put a deposit on an E-Type

Where in Australia are you?

A pair of Martin Robey engine frames from SNG Barratt are around $3k each plus they're quoting over $1k for freight. So $7k.

Replacing the frames (unless the other one is new from the 2017 resto you'd be mad not to do both) involves removing and disassembling the whole front end of the car including the bonnet, engine and gearbox, painting and fitting the new frames then reassembling everything. Over a hundred hours of labour. So you'll not get much change from $15k, maybe more.

In just this one picture I can see surface rust on the lower wishbone fulcrum pin and the heads of the sump bolts also look rusty. We routinely replate all of these fasteners and suspension parts. That this hasn't been done makes me question the thoroughness of the rest of the restoration.

From what I can see of the sump and harmonic balancer this is a 4.2? The exhaust doesn't look right either. The 2 engine pipes should go into twin mufflers but instead it looks like they may go into one pipe only. More pics would help.

[angelw]

Hello Marcusu,
Engine frame are commonly replaced as part of a restoration project, and as Andrew points out, the whole front end, including engine and gearbox are removed. If the bulk head looks OK and no need to repaint it, the engine frames can be replaced without removing the engine and gearbox, which also means that the interior trim, except for the foot well carpet, can stay intact. This will save at least 20 hours labour.

Regards,

Bill

[Marcusu]

Thank-you all for the responses, sounds like it is a serious issue.
The car is a long journey away so not possible for me to go there again to do a further assessment of the front sub-frames.
I will speak to the owner as he knows a Jag specialist close to him and suggest that he gets the car on a hoist and has the specialist look at it and assess the extent of the issue.
Cheers Marcus

[Marcusu]

I’m in Brisbane and the car is in Atherton.
It is a Series 1.5 2+2 and has twin mufflers, see pic.

Hello all,
I’ve put a deposit on an E-Type

Where in Australia are you?

A pair of Martin Robey engine frames from SNG Barratt are around $3k each plus they're quoting over $1k for freight. So $7k.

Replacing the frames (unless the other one is new from the 2017 resto you'd be mad not to do both) involves removing and disassembling the whole front end of the car including the bonnet, engine and gearbox, painting and fitting the new frames then reassembling everything. Over a hundred hours of labour. So you'll not get much change from $15k, maybe more.

In just this one picture I can see surface rust on the lower wishbone fulcrum pin and the heads of the sump bolts also look rusty. We routinely replate all of these fasteners and suspension parts. That this hasn't been done makes me question the thoroughness of the rest of the restoration.

From what I can see of the sump and harmonic balancer this is a 4.2? The exhaust doesn't look right either. The 2 engine pipes should go into twin mufflers but instead it looks like they may go into one pipe only. More pics would help.

[christopher storey]

Andrew : it looks like a 2+2 to me, which explains the single pipe after the flexis . It also worsens the economic argument for the car if major repairs are needed

[abowie]

. It also worsens the economic argument for the car if major repairs are needed

Yes, I agree.

[Marcusu]

I’ve looked at quite a few 2+2’s and most appeared either tired or bodged.
People don’t seem to want to spend big money restoring them as they aren’t worth as much as OTS’s or FHC’s.

. It also worsens the economic argument for the car if major repairs are needed

Yes, I agree.

[Gfhug]

Marcus, now you’ve learnt about the others from Oz on the forum, why not ask if they can help source a decent car for you?

Geoff

[Marcusu]

Good idea Geoff,
I’m open to all options, just want to find a sound car.

Marcus, now you’ve learnt about the others from Oz on the forum, why not ask if they can help source a decent car for you?

Geoff

[Marcusu]

Thanks all for your advice. I’ve decided to pass on this car because of too many concerns about the quality of the restoration work on it.