WARNING…BE CAREFUL!!

[Paul bow]

Hi guys.. I am at present going through a complete restoration on a S2 OTS.
Full of upgrades and goodies in the engine all from the Rob Beere stable, however I have made a very costly error of judgment.
I fitted the std Borg and Beck clutch from SNG Barrat, I have used these before without issue, however on this occasion disaster, the clutch release bearing gave up after 20 mins on the rolling road. throwing carbon all over the floor through the inspection hole in the bellhousing.
Now I know how to set these up have done many before and I distinctly remember spending a good hour checking and double checking clearance.
I have since found out there was sometime ago the exact same problem with the carbon bearing breaking up, have I just been very unlucky and had a odd faulty item, it looked fine when it went in, who knows? What I do know is it’s costly as engine out and split the gearbox is going to take much time especially on a car that looks as good underneath as on top..
Simply the quality control of some of these Re-manufactured parts are questionable at best.hence for me I’ve now opted for a bearing type release, as used in modern machines . can’t risk another experience like the last, so guys if your fitting a std 9 1/2” clutch, do your homework don’t end up doing it twice like I’ve had to..
Anything going inside my engines in the future will definitely be only coming from Rob where the standards are guaranteed/quality are guaranteed.
Oh and yes I called SNG and got the standard reply from customer services to send the item back and they will send it on to the manufacturer…
Don’t suppose they’ll be interested in the £250 recovery or the 4 days now being spent to put it right..
Seriously learned a lesson with this! See pics below.

[MarekH]

Sorry to hear about that, but why do you say this is a remanufactured part? Surely it's just part of a standard B&B clutch kit that many of us have fitted or have you sourced this item separately?
kind regards
Marek

[DWW]

After mine was restored and I am not sure what clutch was fitted my release bearing exploded shortly after while the car was idling. It had to go engine out and cost me over 5K to fix as I had a five speed box fitted at the same time….

[Paul bow]

Danny I feel your pain my friend, such a costly failure for something that costs so little..
If I had not spent so much money on the engine internal did of opted for the Rob Beere complete clutch but at about £700 versus the B/B @ £250 ish , which I had used before I made that mistake of cheap often ends up costing more!

[Paul bow]

Merak.. you are right it’s manufactured, maybe by BB or maybe that part comes from kat man du. Who knows, one thing for sure is the quality control clearly is suspect or the problem would not have arisen. Like I mentioned before this was a problem a while back, I would not wish others to have the same fate as I have endured.
At best I’ll be offered a replacement bearing, it’s very doubtful there would be any recompense for time and expenses ..and obviously not me or anyone would feel comfortable refitting an item which is so hard to get to which has already let you down.

[Paul bow]

..just adding on from the last message, I called SNG and spoke to Tom in customer services, he informed me to send the part in and they would forward that to BB.
Talking of quality control, I also bought an expensive servo unit from SNG after a full day I could not pressurise the system, everything pointed at the new servo, so I ordered another and swapped it over, within 1/2 an hour the system was pressurised and working perfectly. SNG refunded me eventually, they did at first wish to send it to the manufacturer for testing infact customer services wouldn’t budge on this, with some help with someone on this forum the issue did get resolved swiftly and satisafactory.
I am certainly not rubbishing SNG I have spent many thousands with them, their service is impeccable, I just think some items are slipping through the net, this particular one is a real problem if u get caught out..

[gtjoey]

Just on the throw out bearing.......
If you took the exact replacement part from MOSS, SNG OR ANOTHER ,ALL 3 WOULD BE DIFFERENT.
The only throw out bearing today if you go with an AP clutch is the BROAD set up.
The rest are all junk. Its NOT THEIR FAULT.....
Its the terrible repro parts, brake boosters ,hose lines and all the rest.
Try to ALWAYS use OEM or after market modern supply.
The rest is really terrible.
Its also effecing the value of our cars as the young people will not put up with the NON RELIABILITY.
Go to HARRYS GARAGE on the XJ12C, He has more money than the KING and all the repro parts just kept falling apart.
GTJOEY1314

[Paul bow]

GT Joey what you have said there is absolutely on the money. AP would have been the way to go, or Robs version which I think runs AP clutch plates but a different cover. Nothing from the usual suspects went in my engine, poor judgement on myself with the clutch proved super costly..

[Jack the lad]

There is a serious world-wide problem with "fake" components for all cars, motor-cycles, lorries and coaches, this has become a problem for current cars and classic cars and has become common during the last 20 years. Mercedes had a problem during the 1990's and fixed it by putting holograms on the packaging and the parts. These fake items are all over the classic car suppliers as they can buy lots of them at 10% cost of an original and the end user is not aware they are not from a recognised supplier, in this case B&B. My advise to anyone with a suspect item is to cut out the retailer and send the item directly to the manufacturer. They will be able to say if it is a genuine one from them or a cheap poor quality replica, if you have the box it all came in, send that to them too. I'm not suggesting SNG has done anything wrong, they may have bought in all innocence, what they paid is a good indicator and where it came from too.
Slightly off topic, I have used Mitutoyo measuring equipment on my lathes and milling machine, bought a new replacement digital micrometer for £120 on a popular auction site and within 1 month it went faulty, the supplier was very keen for me to return it to him but I send it directly to Mitutoyo who replied that it was not one of their products, upon getting it back I compared it to my original (now broken) one and could not tell or see any difference, even the plastic box was identical. These copies are very convincing and everywhere.

[MarekH]

OK, so you may be looking at a counterfeit part (rather a reproduction part) and once in the supply chain, no one can tell the difference.

kind regards
Marek

[mgcjag]

Hi Paul...can you post a photo of the rear side of your bearing please...what numbers are on it.....also does it have a pin or screw in the side of the casting through into the carbon.....cheers.....Steve

[JulianBarratt]

Dear All,
Just to let you all know that i am aware of this thread and I will keep my eye on the process of the return of the part and its subsequent investigation.
Of course, this issue needs to be investigated properly - hence why we have asked for the bearing to be returned. As others have mentioned, this part is from the standard Borg & Beck Clutch kit as fitted to many cars - including our own E-types.
Please be careful with some of the terminology being used here - especially around fake or counterfeit as none of these parts are purporting to be something they are not. In response to the mention of Mercedes introducing holograms etc - this is an entirely different argument since Mercedes make a number of components for the classic market, whereas Jaguar (where talking about the E-type) basically do not and have not for the last 40 years - with a small number of exceptions. If you wanted to restore your E-type using only new "Jaguar" products, it simply wouldnt be possible.
With regards to engine parts in general, we sell a huge number of these each year to both car owners and specialists such as those mentioned in this thread. We use them in our own cars with cover way more mileage than your average classic and we constantly strive to improve the products that we sell so I am more than happy to look at individual examples where we can improve. We work with major manufacturers in a number of cases - such as Borg and Beck above or Mahle/Hepolite on the pistons, but there are also many cases where large manufacturers simply arent interested in making in the low volumes of the classic market.
Finally, if you are going back to take a look at the Harrys Garage XJ restoration - one of the issues he had (from memory) were around the injectors - which were, ironically, Genuine Jaguar.

Of course, none of this takes away form the original issue with the bearing, which needs to be investigated and we will ensure this takes place asap.

[MarekH]

At best I’ll be offered a replacement bearing, it’s very doubtful there would be any recompense for time and expenses ..and obviously not me or anyone would feel comfortable refitting an item which is so hard to get to which has already let you down.

It is important to work with your suppliers, rather than blame them for any faults passed on. As end users, we have a lot more "clout" with SNGB on our side and they are in a far better to negotiate any compensation for us (perhaps with no blame accepted or implied of by B&B) than we will ever have, so I'd not think that returning the bearing to them is necessarily a lost cause.

Looking forwards, you are past the lowest point.

kind regards
Marek

[Paul bow]

Hi guys..
Firstly credit where it is due to Julian barratt for taking time to respond to this issue.
I have posted below a couple of pics of the back of the bearing for you steve, there is no part number on it though.
I will send the item back to SNG tomorrow tbh I wasn’t going to bother as I did not feel any thing would come if it.
I felt I was on my own and would have to simply gulp down this loss.

Maybe that was misjudged on my behalf.

At present the new bearing has been purchased from Rob Beere.

The chips on the back of the bearing I dont know how they came about probably the garage I have taking care of doing the job did it whilst leavering it out of its housing.. dont know certainly wasn’t like it going in.
I personally couldn’t face stripping it all down again..
For those wondering who I’ve trusted to take care of it, it is Northampton motorsport who were also taking care of the fuel injection system I fitted, they were programming the ecu and rolling road, they are nothing short of excellent in every way, however as you can imagine engine out and split is very expensive, but I’m simply all in at the moment !
As I’m sure you can imagine..
thanks guys and thanks to Julian for picking up this thread.

[gtjoey]

Julian is TOP NOTCH and has picked up the phone when I have called or asked for him.
Spending close to 200,000 dollars U.S.in parts from SNG over the last four or five years ,he gets it!
Bringing the business to the next level and going the extra mile.
Remember I dont restore my Jags for a living , its for my own satisfaction.
The ultimate problem that even Norman Dewis always repeated.....If JAGUAR PARTS were just 1 cent , 10 cents or a dollar more in quality, most of these issues would not happen.
So the repro cant help repeating the same history.
BUT.........If your going to remake, MAKE IT WORK.
Thats the frustrating thing....most of us have the cash and want it done right but the MAJORITY of JAGUAR parts were just not that great.
My 2 cents......but on the throw out bearing alone.......GO AP , CLUTCH AND THROW OUT BEARING....
LOVE
GTJOEY1314

[Paul bow]

Trawling through my pics of this restoration I found these pics I took of the said bearing and clutch just before they went together, just incase there was any doubt the error was in the build, even a delicate wipe of grease on the bearing to assist in the first few dabs on the clutch plate..
Note the extra (not done by me!) hole for inspection in the bellhousing, making it easy to see with your own eyes the clearance on the bearing thus eliminating any chance of build error, not a bad modification really imho !
Pics

[mgcjag]

Hi Paul.....interesting that your release bearing has a small rolll pin fitted through the side into the carbon.....i know that fixings like this (screw/pin) was fitted to some bearings a while back as a "fix" by some manufacturers becaus the carbon ring was falling out on some bearings.....I never realy thought it was a great idea as originaly a mechanical fixing wasnt required........personally iv only fitted NOS release bearings so never had a break up issue. ......im wondering if this pin/screw is a common fixing on new bearings now......anyone else fitted a clutch recently with a bearing like this.......Steve

[Allrand]

Done many of these in the past, not only Jaguars. I've never heard of putting grease on the carbon surface. Is that not perhaps a contributing factor to the failure?

[Paul bow]

Allrand… yes I was waiting for this response.
Greasing the bearing up is laughable it does not require that as we all know, study the pic..
This was a firmly pressed wipe just to ease the first few dabs on the plate, just because you have not done it does not make it so my friend.
Pinned carbon bearings are prone to breakage. I however, having also fitted many was not aware of this, but a simple google search has thrown up some interesting results on it..
Of course had this been fine and dandy I still would have been none the wiser..

[dxke38]

Many years ago,about 45 years, I had a carbon release bearing break up on my Mk2 340 just as I was coming up to a roundabout and used the clutch. And this was before all of these pattern parts around now.