Oh no! Engine frame damage, could it be repaired?

[Nick V12 e type]

I’ve spent some time this evening stripping the various items from the engine bay now the engine is out.

Horror of horrors I’ve found what looks like jacking damage to both frames where the cross member bolts in.

Is any one aware if any of the UK manufactures will repair rather than just sell replacements?

I’m thinking remove the bottom tubes and braze in replacements?

Seems a waste to scrap them plus a large cost ( not budgeted for).

I’m sure I’ll feel better about this tomorrow!

Hear are some snaps

[abowie]

The bottom line is that engine frames are not repairable. I don't know the S3 cars that well, but that looks like squashed Reynolds tube to me.

Buy new ones.

[christopher storey]

I am afraid not . Quite how that damage has been caused is a bit of a mystery ,because I doubt that mere jacking could squash the tube to that xtent , but there is no way of repairing it

[Bob.]

Hi Nick,
Sorry to see your expensive problem. It looks to me like the result of a historical square on frontal impact. The bottom of the frames are more heavily triangulated rearwards from this cross bracing point than forward of it, so I would be looking for further evidence such as paint cracking around other frame joints and any sign of damage to the bulkhead, but as others have said frames not safely repairable.
As far as jacking damage is concerned I would rule that out. In the ROM Jaguar actually specify these points for support during torsion bar work on the S3. Here's a picture so others can see the S3 frame arrangement.
Bob

[Nick V12 e type]

Thank you for your helpful comments, as I thought when I wrote the post I do feel better about the situation today than I did yesterday.

I’ve been reading up about Reynolds tubing, pleasantly surprised that they are based only about 20 miles from me in Birmingham. I also read that they did a special run of imperial tubing for the Jaguar XKSS reborn project a couple of years back. I recall that the TV show following the XKSS story hosted by Mark Evans did a short piece at an old school workshop that made up the engine frames for the XKSS.

A few discussions in the pub tonight reminded me that there are still many engineering and specialist short run manufacturing businesses in the Midlands with highly skilled workforces.

I any event I have lots to be getting along with before getting to the point of biting the bullet to cough up the £2,000 plus for replacement frames.

Still open to new suggestions in the interim.

Kind regards all

Nick

[abowie]

Apart from the problem with brazing it correctly (it is complex and there is a lot about this in the net), the rest of your frames are probably bent out of shape due to accident damage. So you would need a jig to straighten them, if that can be done.

Additionally, if you were to attempt to replace the bent section you would need to use exactly the same tube as if it is thicker or thinner it would alter the way the frames flex when the car is driven, potentially leading to the frames breaking elsewhere.

With enough determination and knowhow you could probably find someone prepared to do the repair. CrMo tubing is used extensively in motorsport and aircraft. But you might find that the cost to do it properly is substantial and you still end up with a frame that you never really trust.

Maintaining our cars is sometimes expensive (wait until you need a V12 engine rebuild and they tell you that your heads need to go in the bin) but the cars are intrinsically quite valuable and you end up owning them for a long time which dilutes the pain somewhat.

[Nick V12 e type]

Hi Andrew,

You are right on all points.

Despite this set back I am still very pleased to be slowly progressing to restore my e type. This was the first surprise during disassembly, there will probably be more.

I feel very privileged to own an e type and will spend what is necessary in time and money to finish up with a safe and reliable car.

Onwards and upwards

Nick

[Jeremy]

Good for you Nick. In my experience you continue to enjoy the fruits of a job done well long after you have forgotten how much it cost....
I'd love to whizz up to see you and the car in the next few weeks if you are around...never got up real close to an S3. Will PM you.

[AshM]

Hi Nick

Sorry about your news on the frames but as others have said it’s not a repair job.

That said, you live in the right part of the world for a lot of old specialist skills that will be lost in the next decade or two. I found a small crack in my engine block that was stitch-welded in Willenhall. The quality of the work was breathtaking.

Jealous of your location (as a Black Country born boy trapped in Edinburgh!).

Good luck with the restoration and keep us all posted.

Cheers
Ash

[Sarthe72]

A restorer told me that he won't use any A-frames except those from E-type Fabs because those from Robey are not correct. The problem, the last time I heard, is that E-type Fabs have put their prices up to £4,000 for the A-frames. After 25 years I bought mine from them five years back and they were £2,000 then. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.

[71 V12]

I must admit I would explore repair options before replacement.

My first port of call would be Rod Jay at RJ Racing Panels near Nuneaton. Rod should be able to advise if repairable. Next option would be a good body shop experienced at straightening/ pulling chassis damage.

Worth a try given the potential cost and hassle of new frames.

[Nick V12 e type]

Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

Jeremy if you fancy a run out to the Midlands it would be great to see you for a catch up. I’ve sent a PM, let me know if you haven’t received it ( I’m not too competent with the forum functionality!

AshM your right lots of specialists businesses in the Black Country, Birmingham and Coventry. ( I hope not to find an engine block crack, but you never know). I find myself in Edinburgh at least a couple of times a month and always enjoy Tigerlily followed by Fingers Bar, too many late nights! I would choose Edinburgh over the Black Country but each to his own.

Sarthe72 I cam across E type Fabs when searching the forum, there were no prices on their web site, now I know why!

71 V12 thank you for your suggestion, looking at RJ Panels website and the bespoke work their doing one would think they have the skills and experience to tackle anything.

When the frames are off the car and cleaned up I will have a better idea of their condition and will see if the damage is localised or more extensive.

I will report back over the coming weeks

Thanks again

Nick

[abowie]

A restorer told me that he won't use any A-frames except those from E-type Fabs because those from Robey are not correct.

This is not true. I have used one set of Uryk's frames and at least half a dozen from Robeys. The Robeys frames are perfectly OK.

[angelw]

Andrew Wrote:

I have used one set of Uryk's frames and at least half a dozen from Robeys. The Robeys frames are perfectly OK.

Hello Andrew,
S3 Engine Frames? I don't think so.

Regards,

Bill

[abowie]

True, all were for S1 and S2 but the Robey frames were well made and no more difficult to fit than fitting of the original frames to cars being restored.

Is there something about the S3 frame manufacture that is different?

[Philippe-J.]

I just found that video that shows the manufacturing of an engine frame at MR :

Maybe most of you already know it, but I found it interesting. It shows how to install them on the bulkhead, too.
It confirms what was said in this thread: engine frame brazing is not a beginner's job.