Tyres again

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Heuer
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#1 Tyres again

Post by Heuer » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:15 pm

Nipped up to see Dougal at Longstone Tyres to have my front wheels re-balanced (they were both out by 5gms causing steering wheel shimmy as Angus witnessed) and started cross examining the great man regarding E-Type tyres. He reckons that whilst the Michelin's are best the Pirelli Cinturato come very close and the Dunlop SP Sport is a good buy. He is less than enthusiastic about the Vredestein's though and to prove the point showed me these:

ImageImage

You will notice the distortion in the sidewalls (at the bottom of the first picture and 10 o'clock and 6 o'clock on the second) and it is not a photo anomaly! That's the way they come from the factory :shock: and these are on Borrani wheels from a Ferrari. As Dougal says would you want to trust these tyres if they can't even get the sidewalls right, think what could be hidden away on the inside.

He is not impressed with the Pirelli P4000's particularly as this cheap tyre is now no longer cheap - ?150 which is getting close to the price of the 185's and they are ill suited to the E-Type. He wants to attend a E-Type meet and offer to fit a set of his wheels and 185 tyres and send owners off to try them for 15 minutes. He reckons that is all it will take to convince.

Finally this is his latest advert which the motoring press will not run because ....................

Image

............. the girls are smoking. I kid you not!
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
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christopher storey
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#2

Post by christopher storey » Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:47 am

Dougal went on at great length to me about this at a conversation I had at the NEC but did not go so far as to say that he had ever heard of a failure . More to the point, he did not say that he had taken it up with Vredestein, which is odd since he sold them to me and indeed many others ( and still does as far as I am aware) . It must be a feature of manufacture since every tyre is the same of the ones I have seen . Incidentally, the only 2 tyre failures I have had in 1.5 million miles motoring have been Dunlops, 1 blowout and in a way more seriously, 1 thrown tread which did a lot of damage

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#3

Post by Heuer » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:04 am

They don't look good though, do they? Wonder why they come out of the mould like that. The Dunlop SP Sport looks good value at ?30 per tyre more than the Vred's and it is VR rather than HR rated.
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red

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#4

Post by MarkE » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:47 pm

What is the basis upon which Dougal makes his recomendations, David? Is it the experience of driving many different classic cars with many different tyres under different conditions? Feedback from customers? Manufacturers documentation and competitive analysis? Margins?

I'm genuinely struggling to understand how one individual can be an objective expert on such a wide range of products across such a wide range of cars / conditions!

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#5

Post by Heuer » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:07 pm

Dougal races a Fraser Nash and has an eclectic collection of cars (you would get on great!). His current daily driver is a Daf 33 and he has just bought a V12 Jaguar to play with, replacing a Mk II. Tyres is his only business and he is at race meets every week competing or fitting/supplying them. He seems to work closely with the tyre companies and helped to produce the specification for Pirelli to remanufacture the Cinturato. Last time I was there, two Type 35 Bugatti's had driven in for fresh rubber. All real world experience and he seems to know his craft. When I told him I had an ?lan he went off on a tangent about the various tyre carcass constructions that best suited the car. His special subject is classic car rubber and they don't deal with modern stuff at all.

If you are ever passing Bawtry on the A1 it is worth a visit - informative and entertaining!
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red

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#6

Post by MarkE » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:19 pm

It sounds like his knowledge is gained from his own experience and that of his customers...a pretty sound basis I would guess!

I'm asking as there is currently a debate in the Lotus Elite world about using Cinturatos. Some owners have had their cars since the 60s, and love the tyres, whilst others with the same length of experience seem to think they are downright dangerous.

The Cinturatos have just been re-made in the Elite size, hence the recently warmed up debate. I'll ask Dougal his opinion.

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#7

Post by mystery type » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:27 pm

I was also at longstone tyres on Monday, about 1.15pm shame i missed you Heuer.

i had some new wire wheels, and needed new tyres fitting. due to cost restraints alone, i wanted vredesteins.
having read lots of good reports on this website, i decided to use longstone tyres. i sent them an email to enquire if they had the tyres in stock. but a week later they still hadn't replied.
so i rang them, and spoke to Dougal, who persuaded me to purchase the dunlop`s.
I did a round trip of over 200 miles, thinking it would be worth the trouble to have the benefit of someone of Dougal`s experience.
sadly, due to heavy traffic, i was 15 mins late, and Dougal had gone out, so the youngest member of staff was given the task.
unfortunately, he couldn't even tell me the correct tyre pressures to use on my new tyres.

however, i was still happy with the service, as Dougal business is classic tyres, and if he says that the dunlop is a much better tyre, then i would be foolish to ignore this.

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#8

Post by Heuer » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:03 pm

Mark - Dougal is lusting after an Elite - he has been looking longingly at the yellow one at Matty's. You will have his undivided attention! Bear in mind the current Cinturatos use modern compounds and Dougal gave Pirelli the parameters he wanted.

Sorry I missed you 'mystery type' - I was there at about 2:30 as they go missing around lunch time!
David Jones
S1 OTS OSB; S1 FHC ODB
1997 Porsche 911 Guards Red

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#9

Post by GSR 54D » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:32 pm

Whilst shopping for tyres last year I compared Vreds' 205's with Dunlop ER70 at MWS at Staines. Although I'm unable to comment on each tyres road performance I did notice that the rubber thickness on the Vred's must have been atleast half the thickness of the ER70's.

John H.
Mich XVS :D

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#10

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:11 pm

I wouldn't mind guessing that if you stood lots of tyres in tangential light many would show this kind of join. I've certainly seen it before and I've never had a set of Vreds.

All tyres have a joint, which is part of the reason some of them are directional, at least on bikes. The joint overlaps in one direction and you need to mount the tyres a certain way round to avoid the faint risk of the tread belt 'unpeeling' I believe. Of course cars have directional tyres too and I'm sure there are tread pattern or bias belting issues as well, or other aspects of tyre construction. That anomaly also seems to be in the sidewall/casing ,not the tread belt, but I've seen it before and the point is all tyres have a joint in them somewhere AFAIK. So seeing evidence of a joint in specialised viewing conditions would not, for me, constitute prima facie evidence of substandard construction.

Just read what serious drivers like Jerry Mouton say about them on J-L. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but if Vredestein, Pirelli 4000 or the others were as bad as protrayed, would these world-leading companies keep turning out cr*p and getting the votes of lots of drivers?

Dunno, never tried either of those two brands, but I'm sceptical that they can be as bad as all that. Now controlled circuit trials, of back-to-back fitments on the same full day's testing, with drivers unaware of which tyre they have on their test cars and cornering G-forces and stopping distances etc data-logged....now THAT would be objective evidence and hard to contest.

I've seen such reports for bike tyres, using teams of riders from top racer to newbie, who could not see which tyres were on their bikes and armies of various tyre company technicians on hand to swap the tyres and spare wheels. Results were then pooled and data cross-matched across samples. Under those circumstances, despite some degree of variability in areas like personal preference and riding styles, there was surprising agreement on the qualities of the various tyres.

Being an expert in any field is no guarantee against subjective bias - conscious or unconscious. In fact it predisposes to some sorts of observer bias when reporting findings.

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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#11

Post by Heuer » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:50 pm

Pete

I don't think anyone was saying any of these tyres are bad, just that some may provide a better match to a particular car than others. Undeniably different rubber compositions, profile, load index affect road holding, steering response and comfort which is why Porsche even goes to the extent of specifying their own sub set of tyres from the major manufacturers (N0, N1, N2, N3 suffix). As users we are a pretty forgiving lot and most of us tend to 'drive around' any handling issues and put up with strengths and deficiencies in equal measure. I am just reading 'Cat out of the Bag' by Peter Wilson who relates that Graham Hill would agonise for days over small changes to the E-Type suspension whilst his team mate Roy Salvadori just drove what he was given. They were both equally quick.

As for the Vredestein it is a cheap tyre and it shows because no manufacturer will be able to put in the necessary R&D effort and production values without charging a premium. I have four cars and a van on my drive at the moment and I just checked. Twenty tyres and not one of them shows the anomalies in the above pictures. It is clearly possible to make tyres to a high standard so I why would anyone want to fit those with wobbly side walls on one of the world's most beautiful 150mph supercars? They are also HR rated which actually has as much to do with side wall distortion under cornering loads as maximum speed. Money spends anywhere so I refuse to reward a company who cannot make a tyre to a commercially acceptable standard, even if it is only visual.

As has been discussed before the lower profile tyres from Pirelli and Yokohama are a compromise for the E-Type because of their increased rolling resistance, low ride compliance with a cross sectional design and construction to meet the needs of modern suspension geometry. They are not bad, just not optimised for a 50 year old design. If you can live with that, fine, your car.

Longstone Tyres have the right idea - a set of slave wheels and tyres for owners to try. They did this for me and swapped my P6000's for Michelin's and sent me off to play. Took 15 minutes to decide, night and day, no if's or but's. I do accept however that some drivers are more sensitive to change than others so perhaps for many these alternative tyres are suitable for their needs. Personally I can tell at the first corner whether the tyre pressure is down by even a couple of pounds. But then I repeatedly drive the same test route in the E-Type trying different pressures - 30/35, 32/32, 32/35 until I am happy - gets me out of the house I suppose. :oops:
David Jones
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#12

Post by PeterCrespin » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:09 pm

Can't argue with that David :D

Well, I could, but I won't, and it would be about minor details not substance. To each their own. I *think* my current tyres on the OTS have the 'join' characteristic but my tyres are not a good example to anyone. Just as well I can't check them.

Pete
1E75339 UberLynx D-Type; 1R27190 70 FHC; 1E78478; 2001 Vanden Plas

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