The 'E' Type Forum

Hi all
I bought a new belt for the alternator/water pump on my S1 4.2 FHC 1966 - part C24291 double V type.
However it seems to be slightly shorter than the existing one which is very badly worn and maybe stretched.
To try and get in on I removed the jockey wheel but it still won't go on.

I think maybe the belt won't go on because I have a non-standard alternator which was marked as DRA6010. I believe it is a Delco Remy unit but I can't find any info on it. I guess it is bigger than the original 11AC unit and therefore won't allow enough slack in the adjuster before the case hits the engine block/cylinder head.
I also noticed that as I pull on the belt water starts to drip out of the water pump.

So to the issues:
1. Is there a trick to getting belts on or is there is another longer belt available?

2. Maybe the only option is to revert to an 11AC alternator but I'm not sure what state the 4TR and wiring are in (it's all there but new alternator has a new loom with 2 main wires connected directly to the battery).


3. Do I assume the water pump is shot and needs to be replaced? If so any pointers as to how easy it is.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

If water is dripping from the shaft of the pump then the gland seals are shot and the easiest thing to do is to change the pump. If, however, it is dripping from the joint of the pump to the front cover, then all that is probably needed is to retightent the bolts or at worst replace the pump gasket

As far as the belt is concerned, these can be a real struggle . Your old belt should have on its outer face ( that is, the bit which does not wear ) some markings such as e.g. 15 865 ( as indeed so should the new one ). If you can find these the first probably denotes the width in mm, and the second the length in mm. You can then compare old and new in an unstretched form . As far as getting round your fat alternator problem, try unbolting the alternator completely, feeding the belt into the pulley , and then reconnecting the alt to the bracket . If you can do this and still leave about 1/2 inch play on the longest stretch of the belt, then you will not be overloading the bearings . If, however, it is hard as iron with no give, then plainly a longer belt is needed

To get a longer but non-standard belt, I would try a machine belting stockist. These industrial belting people usually can produce something which will suit, as such belts are made in fairly small increments of both width and length

Steve,

If your old belt is OE spec one thing to check is that the vee?s on the new belt are sitting down correctly in your original pulleys,a friend who lives local to me is building an E for a customer and had a new belt which appeared short and just would not fit,turned out the repro belt was correct on the outside but didn?t have the double vee cut deep enough so it sat high in the pulleys .It was supplied by one of the usuals ,

Steve

I'm having a similar problem at the moment. In my case, my original dynamo has been replaced by a Lucas 17ACR alternator but sitting on the dynamo brackets, not raised up like the 4.2 alternators, but due to its fatter body is sitting further out from the block than the dynamo would (its a fairly tight fit between block and frame rail).

My old belt is marked with a similar part number (C19524C) as the replacement dynamo belt (C19524 - Barretts do not recognise the C-suffix), but there is no way on earth the replacement will fit even if I remove the alternator.

The old belt measures 1038mm outside circumference, while a standard dynamo replacement belt is 1010mm. According to Barretts, a Mk 2 or Mk 10 uses a 1050mm version of this belt and the standard 4.2 alternator e-type belt is an 1100mm version. Due to the tight fit, even the 1050mm will be too long - ideally I'd need one around 1030mm.

Does anyone know how much these belts stretch in use? Going from 1010mm to 1038mm would seem an awful lot of stretch to me, but this is not an area I have experience in.

I have tried a local belting specialist who had never even seen the "twin-v" belt style, so no luck there. Still looking......but if anyone can recommend a good belting specialist to talk to, or knows who manufactures the twin-v belts sold by the usuals, I'd appreciate knowing.

If I can't find one, I may be forced to fabricate a new bracket to push the alternator upwards a bit to use the Mk2 belt, which I'd rather avoid.

John

I had a similar problem with my spare belt which, when I needed it most, was too short. Stuck on the side of the road with a double vee belt that would not fit is no fun at all. RAC took me to a local motor factor who specialised in belts and he had "never seen one, mate" when shown the Jaguar item. I now have two spares (you are welcome to one of them) but they did come from SNG. I will check on the circumference tomorrow and report back.

Now that could be a 'top tip' David. Buy a new spare belt and fit it leaving the old one in the boot!

I am fascinated by these references to a "twin vee" belt . On both my cars the belts are, and AFAIK always have been, conventional , being rhomboid in cross section . Perhaps David could post a picture of the twin-vee type

Chris I thought all of the S1 cars had the twin belt (maybe the earliest didn't). I definately had it on my 64 3.8 and all my 4.2s.

Ah, Angus, maybe I am misunderstanding the point. Mine have 2 belts, one from crank to water pump, and one from pump to alternator. But all are conventional in cross section . The suggestion made in a number of earlier posts that no-one had seen a belt like these suggested to me that "twin-vee" meant that the cross section was W shaped

christopher storey wrote:Ah, Angus, maybe I am misunderstanding the point. Mine have 2 belts, one from crank to water pump, and one from pump to alternator. But all are conventional in cross section . The suggestion made in a number of earlier posts that no-one had seen a belt like these suggested to me that "twin-vee" meant that the cross section was W shaped

Oooops! I think I am guilty of confusion! It is a single belt with a 'W' cross section. Just the one belt on all the cars I have seen as well. I think you might be running 2 belts when you should be using 1? You should have the double V pulleys which aren't for 2 belts......

The S1 e-types all, so far as I know, had one drive belt for both water pump and dynamo/alternator. The early 3.8's had conventional single-v (rhomboid) belts, the later 3.8 and 4.2 had the twin-v (or W-section) belt (in different lengths). These are about 5/8" wide across the top of the belt.

Its not easy to get a good shot of a black matt rubber belt, but here goes;


and here's the water pump pulley it fits;


and the dynamo pulley;


The belt is like two very narrow conventional v-belts side by side linked by their top edges.

I think S2s may have had two separate belts, one for the water pump and one for the alternator, for cars with the alternator mounted atop the picture frame? I can't remember, Christopher, what variants you have.

Thanks for all the responses to the post.

In particular I took Christopher's suggestion and unbolted the alternator and just managed to get the belt on with enough slack for correct tensioning. However I didn't put the jockey wheel back on which, of course, is supposed to provide the necessary tensioning.

For information about belts there are various different ones - for S1 3.8, S1 4.2, for S2 and S2 variants with a/c and pas. Certainly the S1 belts have the twin V profile.

The S1 4.2 belt I bought is just labelled with the Jag part number C24291 and is approx. 1100mm circumference, 16mm wide and depth of 8mm. The gap between the two V's is 5mm at the top.

The old belt had no markings and was about 1110mm circumf., 15mm wide and 7mm deep. However I reckon it was at least 40 years old and maybe stretched and worn (car has only done about 2000 miles since 1974).

Unfortunately the water pump is dripping from the shaft between the body and the pulley so looks like another job to come.
Can anyone tell me how you remove the 4 bolts on the pulley to get at the bolts and nuts attaching the pump to the engine. As it is the pulley just spins freely so not obvious how to hold it to undo the bolts.

Many thanks
Steve

Steve,
I use an old fan belt and a large pair of mole grips to make a strap wrench. Basically put the belt around the water pump pulley, slide the mole grips as close to the pulley as you can get them over the belt and lock them tight, then either hold the mole grips or allow them to wedge against a suitable part of the frame rails (padded to prevent damage) and this should prevent the water pump from turning while you attack those bolts. Make sure the pulley and belt are clean and dry - any grease or oil or water on them will make it much less likely to stop the pulley turning.

If you can manage to get even one bolt out, you can then insert a rod or long bolt into that bolt hole and use that to lock the pulley from turning if the others are too tight for the strap wrench.

If that doesn't work an extreme solution is to drill a hole through the pulley so you can lock it with a drift or stiff rod.

Access is a lot better if you raise the front of the car, disconnect the bonnet springs or struts, and (carefully - its heavy) hinge the bonnet forward to the fully vertical plane. A rope or strap attached betwen the safety catch on the bonnet and the catch bracket on the bulkhead can be used to stop the bonnet going past the vertical.

Cheers

vikla wrote: Unfortunately the water pump is dripping from the shaft between the body and the pulley so looks like another job to come.
Can anyone tell me how you remove the 4 bolts on the pulley to get at the bolts and nuts attaching the pump to the engine. As it is the pulley just spins freely so not obvious how to hold it to undo the bolts.

Many thanks
Steve

Be aware that very occasionally water pumps will settle down after a period of running if the engine has been static for a long time, particularly with poor coolant in it. It's an odd type of seal and slight deposits can occur on the rubbing surfaces, which are rubbed away in use so the seeping can sometimes dry up after a few runs.

If you have the bonnet off and no way of exercising the car except 'fully dressed' on the road, you might prefer to bite the bullet and do the pump now while access is good. But if the car is already in one piece and you can sneak the odd drive up and down the lane, then it might be worth trying to see if yours settles down.

Pete

Oh how very interesting - in nearly 20 years of owning my Es I had never realised I had the wrong pulleys on !! My S1 4.2 has rhomboid section pulleys and belts, and my S2 has the correct system ( for an S2) of two rather thicker section belts. It probably also explains why I still get occasional belt squeal on my S1 on startup

An update on the availability of W-section double-V belts.

It would seem that the only source of these in the UK is John Gordon Jagur Spares - very nice guy Les on the phone there, by the way - but they cannot source any new ones at present and are living off their (happliy very large) stock of belts purchased when the only manufacturer closed down. Apparently the "usuals" get theirs from JG.

When those stocks are exhausted then a custom batch would have to be commissioned from a belt manufacturer with the problem being the large "minimum batch order" which would be required.

Anyway, so far as I have been able to establish, there are only 5 available lengths of belt, the shortest being for a small-capacity Mk2, then the e-type 3.8 dynamo belt which is 1010mm external circumference or 965mm internal circumference, then the larger-engined Mk2 belt at 990mm internal /1040mm external, then the e-type 4.2 version at 1100mm external, then a custom belt at around 1150mm which Barretts have a handful of.

I've ordered a Mk2 belt at 1040mm as this would seem to be my only option to avoid having to use the 4.2 belt which would mean fabricating a new alternator bracket...

Just to say that the S1 4.2 belt I bought was from SC Spares on eBay. They are selling them there for only ?7.50 each (+?2.50 p&p). This is way below their catalogue price.

I have also ordered a spare belt from SNG at ?13.56 (incl) because I was ordering other stuff anyway and to see if their's is slightly different. Maybe from what John says they all come from the same manufacturer via JG so I will be disappointed. If different I will re-post.

Got the SNG Barrett belt for my S1 4.2.
It is definitely from a different manufacturer than the SC one.
It is marked SBS1100 C24291.
It is 1100mm measured around the edge of the side of the belt (not around the outside which comes up at 1120).
However the depth is nearly 10mm and the width about 15.5mm.
The gap between the 2 Vs is about 4.5mm.
So overall it will sit differently on the pulleys.
Regards
Steve

Steve, which is the better fitting belt?
Angus

Angus
It might be some time before I get the time to try the new belt.... watch this space

Steve