Crankshaft rear oil seal

[Hugo]

Any preference out there for a rear crank seal mod? I'm about to get the crank ground, so that's something I need to address at this stage. I've seen a few variants, and heard some cautionary tales. Is there a consensus anywhere?

[Heuer]

A properly prepared and fitted rope seal works very well. You need to soak it in a jar of oil for as long as possible before fitting and you need the correct sizing tool to install it correctly. The lip seals usually need the crank to be machined irreversibly so it is worth getting as many experienced opinions as possible. Unfortunately the lip seals need to be split and super-glued back together which is a potential fail point. The failure is instantaneous as soon as the engine is first started so if it holds you are good to go, if not repeat the whole process.

[Hugo]

Yes that's what I thought. My old rope seals had been working very well when I stripped the engine, and were still in good condition. However, there's no denying that this is ancient technology, and there are better things in today's world.
Rob Beere seems to do a one-piece conversion, which sounds interesting. I'm about to look into it, but if anybody has any feedback on the other systems on the market - or on Rob Beere's system - I'd be delighted to hear it.
http://www.rob-beere-racing.co.uk/pictu ... lip001.jpg

[Hugo]

I knew it was a mistake to go browing websites - I see Rob Beere does a long-stroke crank (125mm) for the 4.2 litre. That takes the engine to 5 litre according to my arithmetic. £4,000. Bargain?

[christopher storey]

Hugo : my experience of lip seals on 5 engines - none of them mine - has been discouraging. Of the 5, 4 failed within a very few months, and this required not only the inevitable and costly engine removal and strip down, but in 3 cases a new crank - the 4th elected to try again with a fresh seal and AFAIK it has held this time. Barge poles, wire brushes and dettol etc come to mind. The rope seal is not as old technology as you may imagine. For the first nearly 10 years of the XK engine no seal at all was used, the tail of the crank having a scroll machined into it. The rope seal first appeared in the late 1950s, and as David says, if properly prepared, properly sized and equally important not cut off before assembly it works very well . New technology is not always better - it's just that it's cheaper to fit

[Hugo]

Hmmm. These were all lip seals split in half, were they? Rob Beere uses an un-molested lip seal round the rear flange of the crank, which necessitates buying a new flywheel as the register is at least partly occupied by the seal. My concerns are that this is a fairly large diameter that will be spinning pretty fast, so high linear contact speed, and it is rather a long way from the oil supply so may not get enough lubrication. However, I would assume that if they didn't work, Mr Beere wouldn't be selling them? Best part of a thousand quid for all the mods, flywheel etc. Or a hundred quid for the sizing tool for the rope seal. Decisions, decisions!
I suppose one consideration is that the rope seal, unlike the lip seals, is not going to fail completely, so if it does leak it will probably be live-able with. And as I said earlier, the one that was on there doesn't seem to have been leaking to any noticeable degree, and it looks like an original high-mileage well-worn but un-molested engine.

[christopher storey]

I think from memory that they were all split seals . If you need a new flywheel I would expect that alone to cost £200 . You can hire the sizing tool from the JEC.( Along with a number of other special tools) . IIRC cost is about £25

[64etype]

I physically evaluated the split seal kits from SNG and from Terry's Jaguar. The odds of making an installation error with the clamshell type design (SNG and XKS) is high. After speaking with Bill Terry at his race engine shop, I selected his design. He puts it in all of his high horse power stroker racing engines. His kit also got a thumbs up from Lippicott's Garage who specialize in the XK engine. No leaks on my engine. I did not consider the Beere kit as I did not like the extent of the mods to the crank. The Terry's kit utilizes a Viton seal as used in millions of GM cars.

Here's a video from Bill Terry. Give him a call if you have questions. Nice man...an icon in the Jaguar racing world.

[politeperson]

My correctly installed rope seal doesn't leak a drop and cost about 12p.

Whats not to like?

[Heuer]

My rope seal has lasted 45,000 spirited miles. Fitted properly they are as good as anything 'modern' provided they are not allowed to dry out, usually after a car has been left standing for a good few years and then run. That is where their poor reputation came from. Rob Beere specialise in race engines and he sells the seals on that basis. If you or your engine builder are not up to the job of fitting the rope seal then maybe consider the very expensive kit and be prepared to start adding other Rob Beere goodies which are totally unnecessary on a road car!

[64etype]

Sure are lots of posts about leaking rope seals....including newly installed ones.

[Hugo]

Here we go - I knew this would happen! Fascinating to hear so many opinions, even if they are often contradictory.
Before I even started this project, my impression of 'rope' seals was that they don't really leak as such, but neither are they completely oil-tight. You always seem to get a drip hanging from the bell housing, which of course is not a problem. My objective now is to do this job once and once only, and I am exploring the best option to achieve that.
My concern, however, is this; I was under the impression that they were originally made from asbestos, whereas modern ones will be made with a possibly inferior substitute. I still have a bundle of pseudo-asbestos string in the garage that I used years ago to make a seal for something-or-other.
Anyway, keep 'em coming!

[Simon P]

My correctly installed rope seal doesn't leak a drop and cost about 12p.

So anything else is just....... <ahum >...... money for old rope?

[Hugo]

Groan But here's the obvious question - if the 'old rope' seal works so well, why have so many people designed a modification to replace it?

[Hugo]

........The Terry's kit utilizes a Viton seal as used in millions of GM cars.......

His website says it's Teflon. Not that I would know the difference. I'm a bit confused as to his location; the website says Benton Illinois, but at the bottom it says Kalamazoo, Michigan. Again, not that it makes any difference.
I just came across this video the other day funnily enough. My only observation is that I think I would be inclined to fit the seals and snug the housing down on the block with the crank out, before pulling it off to trim any excess material off the ends of the seals.
Love the train horns in the video. I have a couple of electric versions of those horns as fitted to Cadillacs etc. It's a four horn set, which if I recall pays a minor third with an added minor seventh. Supertonic (or sub-mediant) seventh if you prefer.

[phil.dobson@mac.com]

Hugo when I considered this I spoke with Rob Beere who was building my engine. and I quote "there is nothing wrong with a correctly installed rope seal"

don't go with a lip seal is my recommendation.
best regards
Phil Dobson

[steve3.8]

The rope seal worked fine, when you could buy the right one [asbestos] , i've heard of poor long term results with the white graphite impregnated ones , ok initially then a leak developing . I guess they could be burning up with friction and losing size ? whereas the asbestos seal could maybe resist this better.
About a year ago i rang around trying to get some asbestos ones as new old stock with no luck , i even tried millitary suppliers for the J60.

To use a cut lip seal with the internal tension spring is a gamble at best , not a good engineering solution .

I've seen Bill terry's seal kit before, it's good , it's a solid not hollow lip seal so the cut ends clamp together , it has 2 seal lips , standard fitment in a production engine so well proven .

Given the choice i would [1] Asbestos rope seal [2] Bill Terry's kit

[Hugo]

This discussion reminds me of something I once heard a Rabbi say on the radio - when you get two Jews together you will get at least three opinions on anything.
Steve3.8's comment makes sense - but which to go for? I doubt there is any asbestos rope left on the face of the Earth, so the question is, are the modern pretend-asbestos rope seals as good as the proper stuff? If not, it might be Mr Terry's mod.
I'm going to sleep on it anyway.

[christopher storey]

The Bill Terry seal, is, like all the other conversions, a bodge to save yourself the trouble of fitting the rope seal properly , and, like the others , requires the irrevocable step of machining ( aka ruining ) the rear crank journal . Even then, Terry gives the warning that there are just a few points requiring attention to ensure a leak free seal .The rope seal has been used in countless millions of engines apart from Jaguar. I doubt that any lack of asbestos in it now, makes any difference, provided that it is properly sized - it is if it is too tight on the crank tail that it gets burnt up

[Hugo]

I am highly persuaded by what you say - but it still leaves the nagging question of why so many people have gone to the trouble of designing and developing a modification for something that works perfectly. Or do you think it was just a response to those who had leaks because they didn't fit the rope seal correctly?